Bob's Perfect World- A wall of text regarding the raid scene on P99

[Nivar Quartz]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I played on Prexus which had a complex and well-enforced rotation system, so I'd like to think I speak from a reasonably informed position.

Rotations are sustainable only between guilds. Prexus' rotations came down because a council enforced them, they grew to absurd size (15+ guilds on VS), and people finally had enough. If rotations of any type were used here, they'd have to be fairly limited in scope and would likely only be agreements between TR & TMO. They'd probably be something like 5 hours of uncontested rights to that mob by the other guild. Divinity, BDA, VD, etc., not being part of the agreement, could snipe the mob which must be defended by TR or TMO. The only way a 3rd (or 4th) guild could get into the agreement would be to snipe enough kills from both guilds so that they'd acquiesce. Given this server's history, I find it unlikely that a 3rd guild could be that much of a thorn rendering this tangent academic.

Whenever I hear people bring up rotations here they seem to always assume that it's all or nothing. That the GM's must be involved, that just anyone can apply, and that all mobs must be on it. A rotation is simply one tool used to reduce (not eliminate) certain aspects of competition to give the human beings behind the keyboard breathing room.

I strongly doubt we'll have a rotation for anything other than VP (see below), and we probably shouldn't. Despite TR/TMO clashes, most of the current content is actually handled reasonably well.

Regarding VP, this will depend largely upon how the variance is implemented inside the zone. I personally dread the idea that a full 7 day 48 hour variance will be in effect in VP. The zone is difficult to get into and out of. Characters will be forced to camp inside the zone for weeks at a time at all hours of the day 24/7. That will lead to some damned fast burn out.

Rotations are a balancing act between the fun of racing, and the not-fun of being on call 24/7. I think the mechanics of VP lend themselves exceptionally well to a diplomatic solution, and I would be exceptionally pleased if the leadership of both TR and TMO recognized that and agreed to trade off that zone and only that zone. Hell, you could even make Phara`Dar separate. If by some miracle a gentleman's agreement was reached for VP, the devs could even eliminate the variance for that zone and make it all repop at the same time or something like that.

TLDR: Rotations fail when they're allowed to become just as convoluted and stupid as a pure FFA situation. There is a real middle ground to be had, and I am hopeful that the leadership of both TR and TMO recognizes this.

-Xasten

This is exactly what I mean by making the rules to complicated, keeping things simple and followed to a "T" is the only way it would work here, muddying up the rotation rules is just the same as grieving. anything under 12-24 hrs is unreasonable for a legit rotation that would have staying power, enless a few certain guilds start thinking selfishly because the mob is sitting up and they can put up the numbers to kill it right that second. An easy answer for said guild if a rotation is set up is sorry, check the list and contact that guild rep for more details, or be on your way.

Also, a rotation for VP really isnt needed, TR and TMO have a massive head start on keys and key classes needed to enter and clear, so that part of the rotation discussion would be in the rotation counsel but obviously those 2 would determine what they wanted to do, in or out of counsel.

[Frieza_Prexus]

My point is that rotations are sustainable when the only ones who can police it are the guilds on the rotation.

If A and B rotate, say Trak, and C snipes the mob on B's turn. Too bad so sad for B. The rotation was only between A and B as a private agreement. The moment you start trying to sanction C is when it all just falls apart. If C wants on the rotation, it needs to make life miserable for both A and B so that they'd actually be willing to rotate the target.

[Duie]

Originally Posted by Dravingar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What would the rules be on level 60 alt raid guilds? Would they be exempt or are they allowed to be on the rotation because all it will take is people leveling up/buying alts to have multiple armies/guilds and still be able to effectively make getting trakanon impossible still.

Plus, rotations are beyond dumb.

How is rotation bullshit if it slows progression down, Eleviates burnout turnover and minumizes GM intervention?

Is it only bullshit because you guys would accually have to start caring about the rest of the servers population to get what you want?

i guess I as many others on P99 were not on a "classic" server in your eyes

look at it like this. If We in the Semi Casual raiding guilds allied together to force a rotation. what could you do about it? before you answer that, check the numbers of VD,Divinity, BDA, And Taken. Right now it is not to our best intrest to poopsock ,But if thats what it takes to get you guys to start talking, well We out number Both TMO and TR in manpower, Timezone and Telephones. and Im not just talking Trak either.

And To be Fair TR is the only guild that comes into a zone and tells everyone else to get out. TMO (in most cases) comes in and tries to atleast come up w/ a comprimise to get what they want.

[Nivar Quartz]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is that rotations are sustainable when the only ones who can police it are the guilds on the rotation.

If A and B rotate, say Trak, and C snipes the mob on B's turn. Too bad so sad for B. The rotation was only between A and B as a private agreement. The moment you start trying to sanction C is when it all just falls apart. If C wants on the rotation, it needs to make life miserable for both A and B so that they'd actually be willing to rotate the target.

That's why the groundwork is layed and rules are formed, a counsel of not just A and B guilds is formed, but many trusted members of our community, and these/this agreement is set in stone ie server rules. I believe on Brell if a guild jumped over the list and killed a mob, they lost 1 complete turn in the rotation for a first offense, So if you were 3 away on the list, you lost that turn and another entire rotation before being added to the bottom of the list again. A decent penalty for a first offense, and don't overlook guild counsel and normal guild policing either.

If said guild decides they dont want to adhere to the rotation anymore, well your basiclly shit out of luck without a majority vote to overturn the rotation and Gm's changing the ruleset back to FFA.

Its really not complicated at all, egos need to be checked at the door, some guilds without alliance help will not be able to maintain there spots on the rotation, things have a way of working themselves out quickly. Really the most important part of the rotation is the guild counsel, its integrity and GM support after its followed through with.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If the GM's enforce the rotation that's one thing. I don't suspect that will happen here, but I could be wrong.

Sanctions do not work if one guild wants to hop a "community-enforced" rotation. How do I know? Because I was an officer in the guild that toppled the rotations on my server. The merits of our actions at the time aside, community outrage and other guilds had little to no effect on us.

[Autotune]

Only way there would be a rotation is if it is on VP.

Then it would just be an agreement between TMO and TR.

From everything i've seen by TR and some by TMO, that shit isn't happening. People are greedy and will do whatever it takes to spite that other guildtag.

I will just quit playing before I camp a character 24/7 in VP because every mob has a Variance. Fuck that competition and those pixels.

Pretty much if VP doesn't all spawn at once, I'm not even going to be excited about it. Just more BS to have to deal with. If TR wanted to do a rotation for VP, i wouldn't care. Will they want to work any kind of agreement out? seriously doubtful. After all, they don't feel the need to come to an agreement about mobs they consider "already TR's"

[Dravingar]

Originally Posted by Duie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

look at it like this. If We in the Semi Casual raiding guilds allied together to force a rotation. what could you do about it? before you answer that, check the numbers of VD,Divinity, BDA, And Taken. Right now it is not to our best intrest to poopsock ,But if thats what it takes to get you guys to start talking, well We out number Both TMO and TR in manpower, Timezone and Telephones. and Im not just talking Trak either.

And To be Fair TR is the only guild that comes into a zone and tells everyone else to get out. TMO (in most cases) comes in and tries to atleast come up w/ a comprimise to get what they want.

A) Do it, I would love to see TR or TMO get our shit stomped in by a casual uprising, but you and I both know it's never gonna happen. You all have lives/GF's/Ferraris/Cocaine that are more important.

B)TR has never gone into a zone and demanded people to leave. We might say something about us pulling a mob and to be careful to not die to it.

[Nivar Quartz]

Again, once more, this isn't just about TR and TMO. the list would comprise of about 5-7 raiding guilds over Sev, Tal, Gor, Trak, CT, Draco, Inny, maybe Fay, Vox and Naggy on a minor sub list.

The only reason TR and TMO wouldn't agree to a rotation is really elitist attitudes and really not caring about overall server health in general, not meaning to be rude to either guild, but tell me some other reason with common sense facts and I'll take those statements back.

If you came up on a non rotation server, this rotation probably sounds dumb, but i'm sure you've seen the ramifications of poopsocking, training, rule lawyering ect. How many guilds really could be on the list?

Tr
TMO
Taken
Divinity
VD
BDA
Miscief?

Sorry if i left anyone off, its late.


And honestly, as cool as it would be for the last 5 to be able to tooth and gear up for VP, its not even in consideration in this discussion, so just drop the VP talk.

Another thing to consider is if when guilds like Tr and TMO work out rotation alliances, they are also gearing key classes and friends in other guilds to help them in VP like clerics, DPS, ect. Food for thought really, your long term goals could be advanced alot smoother with an rotation at this point.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Nivar Quartz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, once more, this isn't just about TR and TMO. the list would comprise of about 5-7 raiding guilds over Sev, Tal, Gor, Trak, CT, Draco, Inny, maybe Fay, Vox and Naggy on a minor sub list.

The only reason TR and TMO wouldn't agree to a rotation is really elitist attitudes and really not caring about overall server health in general, not meaning to be rude to either guild, but tell me some other reason with common sense facts and I'll take those statements back.

If you came up on a non rotation server, this rotation probably sounds dumb, but i'm sure you've seen the ramifications of poopsocking, training, rule lawyering ect. How many guilds really could be on the list?

Tr
TMO
Taken
Divinity
VD
BDA
Miscief?

Sorry if i left anyone off, its late.


And honestly, as cool as it would be for the last 5 to be able to tooth and gear up for VP, its not even in consideration in this discussion, so just drop the VP talk.

only way those guilds get into a rotation is if the GMs enforced it.

TR and TMO could do a rotation on those if they agreed between themselves and no one would be the wiser. Will we? no. Those mobs don't need a rotation.

The only mob that could possibly need a rotation atm would be Trakanon, and that's only to combat the small chance that he rides out his entire window.

The main thing is a possible rotation on VP. That is very dependent on how it is set up. If the zone has an independent variance for every target, a rotation is pointless and TMO/TR will hardly ever step out of VP again and soon both would probably burn out enough people to fill 2 raid guilds. If it is set to spawn all mobs at once, then TMO and TR could do a rotation of sorts to combat the clusterfuck of racing inside at the same time.

Talking about a rotation for every god/dragon is pointless with the entire server imo. TR and TMO go hard against each other non-stop and it gets overboard at times. However, I don't see either guild, much less both, just stepping aside for every guild to come walk in like it's Christmas.

PS. A rotation between TMO & TR would only benefit them and the GMs. (on VP)

P.P.S I don't see a rotation ever happening. It will 99% sure enough be a clusterfuck between TR/TMO.

[Haul]

Originally Posted by Foxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

beat salty to the punch, but in the end... us red folk are so wise and know the solutions to things. (without writing a novel)

lol