Game Mechanics: AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Shiftin]

I can't imagine that 40 attack either way is making a difference between backstabbing for the min 45% of the time and 20% of the time. I have rogues leveling up send me tells for advice somewhat regularly when i'm not anon and the feedback i've gotten when we talk about backstab seems to be that the % of hitting for min is consistent all the way up.

[Shiftin]

I spent about 3 hours parsing last night with crys spear, the highest damage practical weapon in game (13 damage). Half with the standard 60 rogue ATK w/ capped str (1181) and half with simulated ragebringer +ATK by getting VoG and shrunken gobby earring (1225).

There was less than half a point difference between the two trials in terms of miss %, so in terms of how often you hit for min when backstabbing, it's safe to say that pure +ATK effects do nothing.

Both trials parsed at 37% minimum backstabs. Yes, I am 60, have maxed weapon and backstab skills and had maxed STR during the entire time. So this is 15% higher min % than in the trials with ragebringer and 7-8% lower than using a 10 damage piercer.

I finished late and didn't get a chance to upload all my raw data, but I will try to get to it tonight.

I would be happy to test under the exact same circumstances with a 15 damage piercer if a GM wants to loan me one for a night so that I can do the work.

[Aadill]

So a 10 damage weapon parsed 46% minimum backstabs and a 13 damage weapon parsed 37% minimum backstabs.

Based on that alone wouldn't you expect to see a 27-30% minimum backstab amount with a 15 damage weapon? That... kinda matches what Kanras found and what I said a month and a half ago.

The distrubution DOES seem too linear.... I would expect a plateau effect of diminishing returns but we're seeing an almost linear calculation. I bet if a 10 damage weapon did 37%, a 13 33% and a 15 did 25-27% a lot less complaints would be heard, but there would have to be hard proof that it wasn't linear, i.e. parses of different weapons from live.

[kanras]

Shiftin,

Grim Aura + VOG = 25 Raw ATK, so you're still 15 short if you really want to simulate the Seething Fury effect.
You need to include what mobs this was tested against. There's going to be a pretty large difference between testing against juggs and karnor's trash, because of mob AC. I don't know what test you're talking about when you claim someone got 22% min BS with a ragebringer, but I somewhat doubt it was against the same mobs you were parsing against.

Other than that, your results aren't too surprising given the sample size.

[Shiftin]

Unfortunately, i just don't know where to get those. The real issue is that rogues across the board don't understand why your hit distribution within your range (min-max-magic) changes so drastically with weapon damage but things like your level, ATK, etc have very little impact. I would think it would be the opposite, that your weapon damage determines your range of possible damage, and all of those other factors determine where you hit within that range.

Kanras would you mind posting what tigole's miss % was with backstab from the parses you have?

Also, it only kinda looks linear, but it actually seems to accelerate a bunch. Going from 10-13 was about 2.6666 percentage points of minimum per damage, where going from 13-15 seems like about double that.

[kanras]

Do you understand what the backstab minimum is? Just from reading this thread, you guys seem to think of it like a damage bonus, where you should min backstab at the same rate that you min hit with your normal attacks. Instead, the backstab damage is calculated, and if it's less than the minimum, the damage is set to the minimum. So whenever you increase your weapon damage, STR, ATK, BS skill, all of those things are going to decrease your min. BS rate because they increase the average "normally calculated" BS damage. This is unless you're using a rusty dagger or something that can't even max hit above the min dmg @ 60.

[kanras]

That tigole parse didn't have misses on, unfortunately.

[Aadill]

Sorry kanras I'm talking about the returns per damage increase of the weapon. I used Treat's numbers because I think we established they were correct but the increase per damage of the weapon diminishes (13 points per damage but never going any higher, making the damage increase linear but the returns non-linear).

As far as the second part - is that how it should work or no? I sorta pulled that one out of my arse trying to remember what I read.. might be wrong on it~

[Daldolma]

I don't know much about all the formulas involved in the damage calculations, but I know for a fact that something is off with rogue melee. On live, Rapier of Oriin in main hand with Sebilite Croaking Dirk in offhand parsed better than the converse. It doesn't here, and it's not close. I know this because I had the combo then, and I have the same combo now.

Probably not terribly helpful since I don't know how to fix the problem, but at least I can help confirm that there is a problem.

[Dazen]

No I do not expect to be backstabbing every round for 350. When you backstab for your minimum for 40% to 50% of the time something is wrong. I dont understand how you can honestly say everything is just fine. You guys are saying Oh well when you get lvl 60 you will be able to double hit for 120 so it's all ok LOL what a joke.