What caused the decline of EQ as the #1 MMO?

[Messianic]

WoW was a natural next-progression in MMOs. At the time, it was leaps and bounds ahead in overall game design, be it the way classes, talent trees, and abilities were structured, or having an already established set of lore to build on, or graphics (at the time), or the functionality of the client...

In every way, WoW was everything an MMO needed to be (at least for most US players) for its first few years - that's why it was so freaking dominant in the states for so long. It had balance issues, yes, but it had done better in that area than any predecessor.

Everything about it was so polished - the raid content (Running UBRS the first 10 times was fun, it did get monotonous after that though), instancing, the variance of strategy for large raid bosses...

Even the lower level instances were so much freaking fun to run. Each class could be dramatically different depending on how you specced (although in PvE you were usually pigeonholed). Pure mob exp grinding wasn't the route to 60 - questing and instancing were.

I'm not idealizing it, I'm just pointing out the pros WoW had in its time.

The whole MMO genre changed a lot over time - and WoW was able to actually predict where the market was going and fill nearly every single desire most MMO players wanted. It was a pretty impressive piece of work.

[Iwar]

I quit when the expansion with max lvl 70 (after GoD?) came out. I played on Vallon Zek and had some vague hope of hard coded teams or changed pvp rules which never happened. I didn't have much interest in starting a level grind again. Quit MMO all together until now.

[XegonyForever]

Originally Posted by gnomishfirework [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EQ did a much better job than WoW. At least there was still incentive to do old world raids. I think planning on how you would have progression go a few expansions ahead of time is key. Old encounters will always get easier, but you can inverse their difficulty. The launch of a raid encounter should be very difficult. Every expansion should make it a little less so. Maybe 3 expansions out it's single group-able by well geared groups.

I'd like to see encounters require skill as opposed to just needing to know how the encounter works. Short of a FPS type set-up, I'm not sure how that's accomplished.

Still, you shouldn't be able to copy/paste a macro from the forums and just hit that one button constantly (like wow).

Hearing you talk about these things just reminded me of a game that does that! Hmm, what was it's name...oh, yeah, that's right.

It's EverQuest.

I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of a dichotomy between "skill" and "knowledge of an event". I've been laboring under the assumption that one is merely an extension of the other.

It takes some measure of skill to move around on an EQ raid so that you don't spray your healers with silence or get deathtouched from standing in the wrong spot, at least in the sense that it's very possible to fail if you're not paying close attention. I mean, fundamentally, MMORPGs will never require the reflexes of a circus acrobat or the dexterity of a safecracker. What exactly are you hoping for?

A fully-buffed, appropriately-equipped raid warrior who is using a defensive disc can be killed by direct melee in less than 3 seconds if the mob isn't debuffed and he gets no heals. I assure you that it takes some degree of skill to survive, let alone succeed, in the modern raid game.

The problem EQ has with its older raid content isn't that its difficulty is trivial so much as that its loot is. EQ loot scales such that end-game group gear from a given expansion will be comparable to end-game raid gear of the previous expansion, notwithstanding things like spellcasting foci that may or may not fluctuate, and the raid gear has a modest edge in AC, which tanks love. Since this is the case, some people who have finished the group game for a given expansion have no gear incentive to go back and do raids from a previous expansion, as that raid gear will be similar or inferior to their group gear, though still potentially challenging to acquire.

Tanks can still benefit from a slight improvement in total AC, but casters sometimes are left out in the cold. For example, when the most recent expansion launched, House of Thule, the group gear that was available in that expansion was superior to all but the end-game raid gear from the prior expansion for casters due to foci, meaning that for raid guilds that had not yet beaten the previous expansion (meaning the great majority of all serious raid guilds in the game at the time), that expansion became semi-redundant overnight.

The thing that those guilds had been striving for nearly a year to accomplish, extracting the end-zone loot from that expansion, suddenly became an afterthought as the guild repositioned itself to progress through the next expansion. Needless to say, this is very anti-climactic and disheartening. This sort of grim reflection still causes people to leave EQ, to this very day.

(Just like when SoD launched and people in lower-end raid guilds that had been trying to get access to PoTime for years -- not for loot, but just to complete a long-running personal goal -- suddenly found that any level 1 character could just zone into PoTime by talking to a static NPC in PoK! I personally know people who left EQ in disgust over that development.)

Raid progression is sufficiently challenging that only the high-end guilds will actually complete a given expansion before the next expansion comes along and makes the previous one irrelevant to all but the melee classes (perhaps 2 guilds per server, or less, if general trends of the past 6 years hold). Depending on the difficulty of the bridge content leading into the next expansion, mid-tier guilds may be relegated to leapfrogging to the next expansion without ever managing to beat the first one until long after its loot becomes rot fodder, which goes against the very ethos of a game like EQ (always a gear-based game, especially in the raid sector).

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by XegonyForever [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hearing you talk about these things just reminded me of a game that does that! Hmm, what was it's name...oh, yeah, that's right.

It's EverQuest.

I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of a dichotomy between "skill" and "knowledge of an event". I've been laboring under the assumption that one is merely an extension of the other.

It takes some measure of skill to move around on an EQ raid so that you don't spray your healers with silence or get deathtouched from standing in the wrong spot, at least in the sense that it's very possible to fail if you're not paying close attention. I mean, fundamentally, MMORPGs will never require the reflexes of a circus acrobat or the dexterity of a safecracker. What exactly are you hoping for?

A fully-buffed, appropriately-equipped raid warrior who is using a defensive disc can be killed by direct melee in less than 3 seconds if the mob isn't debuffed and he gets no heals. I assure you that it takes some degree of skill to survive, let alone succeed, in the modern raid game.

The problem EQ has with its older raid content isn't that its difficulty is trivial so much as that its loot is. EQ loot scales such that end-game group gear from a given expansion will be comparable to end-game raid gear of the previous expansion, notwithstanding things like spellcasting foci that may or may not fluctuate, and the raid gear has a modest edge in AC, which tanks love. Since this is the case, some people who have finished the group game for a given expansion have no gear incentive to go back and do raids from a previous expansion, as that raid gear will be similar or inferior to their group gear, though still potentially challenging to acquire.

Tanks can still benefit from a slight improvement in total AC, but casters sometimes are left out in the cold. For example, when the most recent expansion launched, House of Thule, the group gear that was available in that expansion was superior to all but the end-game raid gear from the prior expansion for casters due to foci, meaning that for raid guilds that had not yet beaten the previous expansion (meaning the great majority of all serious raid guilds in the game at the time), that expansion became semi-redundant overnight.

The thing that those guilds had been striving for nearly a year to accomplish, extracting the end-zone loot from that expansion, suddenly became an afterthought as the guild repositioned itself to progress through the next expansion. Needless to say, this is very anti-climactic and disheartening. This sort of grim reflection still causes people to leave EQ, to this very day.

(Just like when SoD launched and people in lower-end raid guilds that had been trying to get access to PoTime for years -- not for loot, but just to complete a long-running personal goal -- suddenly found that any level 1 character could just zone into PoTime by talking to a static NPC in PoK! I personally know people who left EQ in disgust over that development.)

Raid progression is sufficiently challenging that only the high-end guilds will actually complete a given expansion before the next expansion comes along and makes the previous one irrelevant to all but the melee classes (perhaps 2 guilds per server, or less, if general trends of the past 6 years hold). Depending on the difficulty of the bridge content leading into the next expansion, mid-tier guilds may be relegated to leapfrogging to the next expansion without ever managing to beat the first one until long after its loot becomes rot fodder, which goes against the very ethos of a game like EQ (always a gear-based game, especially in the raid sector).

Great point. This mudflation, though. Even WoW has mudflation. Older content isn't worth doing anymore. The same thing happened in EQ and has happened in other MMORPGs.

I actually played on live in early 2010. I was raiding. I knew full well that UF group gear was destroying most reasons for a person to try the raids in SOD. And here's the thing, it's not that I want raiders to have everything and for the groupers to have nothing, it's that I want a game where the world is balanced. The problem with older raids is that they're every bit as hard as they were on day 1, barring any small changes the developers make. This is the number 1 thing I can think of that really discourages people from trying them. If you see an item in UF that can be had by grouping and you see an item in a sod raid that's only trivially better but much harder to get (needing 30+ people, lockout timers, lots of organization needed and preplanning, players need the audio triggers, etc) then you do UF because it just isn't worth a couple extra mods or stats in the raid. I would not increase the rewards to make it worthwhile, I'd make the actual raid easier.

What's ironic is that this hurts groupers too. Players that were leveling up couldn't do SOD because everyone went to UF. There were no groups. The developers chose to make boomerangs and OMM's to compensate. It was a bad choice, in my mind. It kills the spirit of the game. When I brought this up in the forums people acted like nothing was wrong. I guess they weren't with me when I was grouped with an 83 SK, had a t5 cleric merc, and some others in tosk. We wiped repeatedly to a T4 named (tonk, actually). The gear that he dropped was comparable to what you find in OMMs. I don't remember if we had a slower or not. But the OMMs, once you're good at them, destroyed any reason you might have had to do SOD. They were easy and quick. So my answer in this case would have been to make SOD easier for people who're leveling up, so it's worthwhile.

Another thing about this that's gross is when you go to the older content you also see that it has been abandoned. Old quests lack a quest interface. Old bugs still remain. Old naming schemes still remain. Old models still remain. On and on. Then you go to a newer lowbie zone and everything is updated and working better. The rewards are much better. Then they have the nerve to say that it's superior. Superior? Excuse me, OFCOURSE it's superior! I'd be superior to the next man too if the next man was a beaten-up wreck from living on the streets for 30 years! What a bunch of losers that they make up sh** as they go. Dumbshitz i tell ya.

So what I'd do is do what you suggest here. I'd plan ahead. I'd increasing player/offense and/or reduce the past expansion(s) mob offense/defense. I might also change mechanics, like for group missions/instances or raid missions/instances. Then I'd tune the next expansion to this new player offense/defense so it would be plenty hard. What this would do is open up past content as a viable thing to do. It would retain the value of the latest expansion. Keep in mind that servers get top heavy. There'll be a lot of starving players in hte latest expansion who'll want a group. Just because it's harder doesn't mean it's harder. It's not harder if you got a full group as opposed to the guys in sod that only have 3!!! This is because there's not very many people in sod, it's harder for them to find groups. Since it's easier to find a group in UF, it has higher demands (but similar difficulty).

This is particularly good for older players who never tried the raids. You see a lot of players on player-run servers just because they want to do old raids but never could before because they never had enough people or some other reasons. If past raids had been made easier with each expansion then more players would have tried them just to see what it was like. It's not rocket science. While the rewards would stay the same and the most recent expansion would have the highest rewards, past content would be easier and easier. Thus, its value might stay competitive. And I don't mean easier because a player is a higher level or has better items. Easier because you make a fundamental change to the mechanics that doesn't diminish reasons for going back to old content, like higher level or better items would.

I don't actually know if this would work. I just know that mudflation is disgusting and I don't want to see it again in an MMORPG. The industry has to change for the better and clean up its act. Thus far, it has left a trail of dead bodies in its wake. If a player doesn't look back then it's fine. You won't see the garbage that passes for content. But if you do look back then google mudflation. An informed consumer is a better consumer.

[Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin]

1) PoK books (No need to talk to anyone to get somewhere)
2) Bazaar (No need to talk to anyone to buy something)
3) AA points (Soloer? No need to talk to anyone to ask for buffs)
4) Faction became pointless (PoK/PoTranq NPCs were accepting and not racist)

Boring, boring, boring. 200 hours on my shadowknight on live, a good chunk of which I'd spent grinding faction so Humans/Wood Elves/some High Elves/Halflings/Gnomes/Dwarves would love me. Did I ever need this after PoP and Luclin?

No.

[Deathrydar]

Originally Posted by Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) PoK books (No need to talk to anyone to get somewhere)
2) Bazaar (No need to talk to anyone to buy something)
3) AA points (Soloer? No need to talk to anyone to ask for buffs)
4) Faction became pointless (PoK/PoTranq NPCs were accepting and not racist)

[Shadey]

Originally Posted by Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) PoK books (No need to talk to anyone to get somewhere)
2) Bazaar (No need to talk to anyone to buy something)
3) AA points (Soloer? No need to talk to anyone to ask for buffs)
4) Faction became pointless (PoK/PoTranq NPCs were accepting and not racist)

Boring, boring, boring. 200 hours on my shadowknight on live, a good chunk of which I'd spent grinding faction so Humans/Wood Elves/some High Elves/Halflings/Gnomes/Dwarves would love me. Did I ever need this after PoP and Luclin?

No.

AA points were good for those that solo, grouped and raided. AA's benefited all players. Not just solo players. Find something real to point at to replace that one. LOL

[Kika Maslyaka]

When, PoK, Bazar and AAs were added - the EQ was growing from 400k subscribers to 600k for yet another 2 years and 3 expansions - hows that possibly qualifies as a downfall???

eq was too hard core for the majority of people that played it.
Except there was no alternative to it for a long time, so people kept playing it.
When EQ2 and WoW came out, the majority of players (and potential player) have clearly shown that they prefer the casual gaming, rather than hard-core group/raid oriented gameplay. So they left.
Those who still like the hard core- they still playing to this day.

[Polixenes]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When, PoK, Bazar and AAs were added - the EQ was growing from 400k subscribers to 600k for yet another 2 years and 3 expansions - hows that possibly qualifies as a downfall???

eq was too hard core for the majority of people that played it.
Except there was no alternative to it for a long time, so people kept playing it.
When EQ2 and WoW came out, the majority of players (and potential player) have clearly shown that they prefer the casual gaming, rather than hard-core group/raid oriented gameplay. So they left.
Those who still like the hard core- they still playing to this day.

That sums me up. My best times in EQ were single groups - crawling through LGuk or Sol B. I put up with 3am finishes in Hate, Fear, Sebilis for as long as I could but eventually, one afternoon in TOV after my guild had been killing wyverns and dragons for 15 straight hours I just threw in the towel. Gave away my cleric on the spot and that was that. (For 4 months until I bought the game again and came back as a druid).

[Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin]

At first I liked the AA points, and before I quit I think I had about 50 of them or so (whatever the minimum was to get that awesome SK horse)

AA points gave some classes WTF skills that weren't along the lines of classic EQ.

The points were just another thing on my list that I felt meh about right before I lost interest in playing. As soon as I got the horse I went back to the emptiness of Kelethin and took screen shots of myself sitting beside a Wood Elf for nostalgia.