Monk Epic Fist... is it REALLY that good?

[Cecily]

Sucks we might actually have to parse. I think with Primal and a pair of post epics you might get better DPS. But the number I remember for bagging Ragebringer was 1500 ATK, we're not getting close to that in Velious. Then again, every rogue in the guild with 1 post epic + epic would undoubtedly parse better.

[arsenalpow]

Wu fists aren't really upgraded until primal, Tunare (if she drops the cool shit), and some of the high end ToV shit if I remember correctly.

[Elements]

According to my voodoo dps comparison calculator (similar to yaolin's in the melee section) which accounts for dualwield skill, double attack, level, damage bonuses, weapon type skill (h2h vs blunt vs 2hb), and weapon ratio, the scale tips in favor of epic/sos for raw melee damage around level 40 when compared to a tstaff. By 60 the epic/sos combo is about 9.49% more raw melee dps than a tstaff. Have no significant parse data but plan to generate some when my monk is 60.

For soloing, riposts againt you or the mob that you are fighting would favor a tstaff but how significantly Im not sure.

[Kutsumo]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For soloing, riposts againt you or the mob that you are fighting would favor a tstaff but how significantly Im not sure.

I've been surprised by the lack of ripostes I've seen even dual wielding epic fists, but I haven't parsed it out. Just for an extreme comparison, I'll try dual fists vs IFS for a while when I'm grinding this week and see how much diff I'm seeing in ripostes.

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by Tiggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You monks and your "choices" I'll have my Ragebringer equipped throughout Velious.

No fuss no muss.

[Splorf22]

I find it really hard to believe that the fist will outdamage the adamantite club by so much. 43/37 is like 15%, and its ratio is actually worse (not to mention the AC has a damage proc). I know it's faster so it gets the benefit of the damage bonus, but still. I'm going to guess you're doing something wrong.

Yaolin I checked your calculator and it seems you have two (very significant) errors. First, the Lucy damage bonuses are from the post 2HB upgrade. The real DB for a Tranquil Staff at L60 is 17. (29+29+17)/30 = 2.5, not 2.6. Secondly, monks have a dual wield check vs 400 (warriors do 500). So by your own math it should be Fist = (9+9+11)/16 = 1.81 + SoS 0.76 * (17+17)/ 28 = 0.92 -> 2.73. That being said, I think this method leaves a lot to be desired as it does not measure for example H2H skill and such. I'd be more interested in a long term parse.

Elements I am curious how you factored the H2H skill difference into your calculator though. I played around with some numbers once and the Tranquil Staff/AC+SoS/Fist+SoS all came out about the same.

[Kutsumo]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find it really hard to believe that the fist will outdamage the adamantite club by so much. 43/37 is like 15%, and its ratio is actually worse (not to mention the AC has a damage proc). I know it's faster so it gets the benefit of the damage bonus, but still. I'm going to guess you're doing something wrong.

Aside from placing the weapons in the right hands, I'm not sure exactly where I could go wrong. Obviously the epic fist applies the damage bonus 50% more often, so that could have something to do with it (though I could only expect a 8-10% difference from that alone). Also variance on 60 mobs is certainly possible with missing hits due to mobs running, etc. Longer, accurate parses like the ones you did for AC would be much better.

[Yaolin]

If anyone could post what all the 2h DMG bonuses are for each delay that would be awesome (17 for T-Staff stated by Splorf).

Also confirm skill caps of Warrior and Monk Dual Wields

Monk 400 dual wield and warrior 500 dual wield

thanks

[Elements]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find it really hard to believe that the fist will outdamage the adamantite club by so much. 43/37 is like 15%, and its ratio is actually worse (not to mention the AC has a damage proc). I know it's faster so it gets the benefit of the damage bonus, but still. I'm going to guess you're doing something wrong.

Yaolin I checked your calculator and it seems you have two (very significant) errors. First, the Lucy damage bonuses are from the post 2HB upgrade. The real DB for a Tranquil Staff at L60 is 17. (29+29+17)/30 = 2.5, not 2.6. Secondly, monks have a dual wield check vs 400 (warriors do 500). So by your own math it should be Fist = (9+9+11)/16 = 1.81 + SoS 0.76 * (17+17)/ 28 = 0.92 -> 2.73. That being said, I think this method leaves a lot to be desired as it does not measure for example H2H skill and such. I'd be more interested in a long term parse.

Elements I am curious how you factored the H2H skill difference into your calculator though. I played around with some numbers once and the Tranquil Staff/AC+SoS/Fist+SoS all came out about the same.

In the AC vs epic first debate from ratio + level 60 damage bonus alone we get 26/25 vs 20/16 which on paper should be 20% more damage for the main hand epic fist.

I pulled these formulae out of the p99/eq emu code a long time ago so perhaps things have changed but I took the damage modifier from weapon skill at max (252 for a monk blunts) and looked at the % decrease going to weapon skill for H2H at max (245). I only applied this percent decrease retrospectively to my numbers and only at level 60. For a monk my calcs show 1.65% more damage from a blunt over a h2h of equal ratio based on the difference between the 245 and 252 skill caps. This assumes there is no rounding in the damage calc also.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the AC vs epic first debate from ratio + level 60 damage bonus alone we get 26/25 vs 20/16 which on paper should be 20% more damage for the main hand epic fist.

The damage bonus does not work this way. It is a flat amount added to every hit, not a change to the ratio of the weapon.

Originally Posted by Yaolin

Also confirm skill caps of Warrior and Monk Dual Wields

My word is gospel!

Originally Posted by Kutsumo

Aside from placing the weapons in the right hands, I'm not sure exactly where I could go wrong.

You were soloing, right? GamParse has issues with pulls sometimes. Maybe you could try Fist/SoS and AC/Fist and measure your average it (so that the 2HB and punches show up differently). It's relatively straightforward to go from average hit to total dps.