almost 80 people in fear

[Ektar]

Originally Posted by Samuel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well I finally got back to this thread since my last post this afternoon.

I can't even believe that IB is trying to defend their actions. There is no grey area here. Fish Bait had 15+ twenty minutes before anyone else had more than 3. IB shows up in force, two minutes later they wipe. Fish Bait wipes (gets trained?), camps clerics, resumes pulling. Fish Bait pulls Draco. Fish Bait engaged Draco. IB jumps in to kill steal Fish Bait because they lost the race, even after they wiped (were trained?).

This thread shouldn't be an argument about training accusations (even though we were pulling and clearing fine before other guilds showed up). It should be a thread questioning why IB isn't punished for kill stealing and why IB got to kill and loot a second Dracoliche after their actions earlier.

First of all, you seem to be the least crazy of the people on the thread, so know from the beginning this post is not flaming at you but pointing out the problems with your case.

The thing is, when making accusations, you need to work with indisputable evidence. And no, I am not saying "haha we did it and you can't prove it." You have (the ones you are referring to) screenshots of your raid wiping; none of which have any sort of indication that IB was involved in ANY way other than something the poster typed underneath it, such as "IB did this." The screenshot of FB wiping to the "train" is merely showing you guys had a bunch of mobs.


Furthermore, you are overlooking a scenario in your rendition of the population event. According to the rules, once you fall under 15, you lose your front seat in the line and must restart at the back of the line once you get back to 15. Yes, you did have more than 15 first, but upon your wipe you lost that 15 man mark. During your recovery, IB had 15+ in the zone while FB was still under 15.


Yes, if IB trained you this is illegitimate; but since you have no actual proof (and, once again, not saying "did it - you can't prove it"), you cannot use this in your case. So since there is a timestamped screenshot of IB having 15 before FB, we gained the front seat.


Now I'm not going to argue if we have a legit timestamped screenshot or not cuz that's either a yes or no that I can't back up (that is, I don't personally have it). I wasn't present for this clusterfuck. I am just explaining it as I heard it (and as I believe, cuz I trust my pals (which, once again, is not part of this debate)).


So that is IB's side. Again, we're not merely banking on the fact that you don't actually have proof - we're banking on the fact that the accusations are false. There is no proof because it's impossible to have it.


And the big problem was that IB zoned in while you guys were CRing. As far as we were concerned, there was no ambiguity; we had 15, you did not. So ya see, as far as WE were concerned, you were being dickbags jacking our draco before following the necessary steps (calling 30 min, etc).


Perhaps we should amend the raid rules with a clause to claim ownership. Yes you don't claim your own 30 minutes. But perhaps we should do something like that, yeah? Maybe not if you're all alone when you zone in, but if there's a few of another guild in the zone, ya go hey guyz we got 15, you don't, that coo? And if there's a disagreement, at least it's beforehand and not after a guild acts and a clusterfuck occurs.

[trolleleet]

Originally Posted by Ektar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First of all, you seem to be the least crazy of the people on the thread, so know from the beginning this post is not flaming at you but pointing out the problems with your case.

The thing is, when making accusations, you need to work with indisputable evidence. And no, I am not saying "haha we did it and you can't prove it." You have (the ones you are referring to) screenshots of your raid wiping; none of which have any sort of indication that IB was involved in ANY way other than something the poster typed underneath it, such as "IB did this." The screenshot of FB wiping to the "train" is merely showing you guys had a bunch of mobs.


Furthermore, you are overlooking a scenario in your rendition of the population event. According to the rules, once you fall under 15, you lose your front seat in the line and must restart at the back of the line once you get back to 15. Yes, you did have more than 15 first, but upon your wipe you lost that 15 man mark. During your recovery, IB had 15+ in the zone while FB was still under 15.


Yes, if IB trained you this is illegitimate; but since you have no actual proof (and, once again, not saying "did it - you can't prove it"), you cannot use this in your case. So since there is a timestamped screenshot of IB having 15 before FB, we gained the front seat.


Now I'm not going to argue if we have a legit timestamped screenshot or not cuz that's either a yes or no that I can't back up (that is, I don't personally have it). I wasn't present for this clusterfuck. I am just explaining it as I heard it (and as I believe, cuz I trust my pals (which, once again, is not part of this debate)).


So that is IB's side. Again, we're not merely banking on the fact that you don't actually have proof - we're banking on the fact that the accusations are false. There is no proof because it's impossible to have it.


And the big problem was that IB zoned in while you guys were CRing. As far as we were concerned, there was no ambiguity; we had 15, you did not. So ya see, as far as WE were concerned, you were being dickbags jacking our draco before following the necessary steps (calling 30 min, etc).


Perhaps we should amend the raid rules with a clause to claim ownership. Yes you don't claim your own 30 minutes. But perhaps we should do something like that, yeah? Maybe not if you're all alone when you zone in, but if there's a few of another guild in the zone, ya go hey guyz we got 15, you don't, that coo? And if there's a disagreement, at least it's beforehand and not after a guild acts and a clusterfuck occurs.

Please STFU.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If a raid force is at the raid target and you begin gathering your own forces you are required to give the raid for that was there first a grace period of 30 minutes.

Originally Posted by Ektar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

During your recovery, IB had 15+ in the zone while FB was still under 15.

What I really don't understand is the selective memory and selective use of rule interpretation. I remember many times being at a target first and getting a kill even tho another guild had 15 in the zone first. Certain people sure whistled a different tune then.

I'm really trying not to flame, but this is so blatant, and certain people are ignoring it as if they were righteous. Hypocrisy isn't becoming.

[flednat]

Ok when I was on live if a guild was in a zone, we let them try to kill a mob, hell we would maybe even give them a couple chances. We where never enough of douches to train another guild, have 300 peple in teh zone to lag said guild out. We let them give it a fair go. I don't understand where this mind set comes in that makes you think you can just roll over anyone or anything to get at a target? You think you deserve it? or becuase oh look they are fighting a roaming mob not thee raid target there for we can can just go right by them and get the raid target is correct? This is really a problem in my opinon.

Honestly I think if the guild leaders just talking and people didn't think they where the cats meow it would be a lot more civil and there would be a lot less deuchbaggery by everyone involved.
Also, make some rules and punish heavily if there are no repurcusions for the actions taken, this will only get worse and worse.
Once again the are my personal opions of someone not involved in anyway with any of these guilds.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by flednat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, make some rules and punish heavily if there are no repurcusions for the actions taken

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Q: What if I engage first?
A: If you are not the first raid force at a target, and you engage the creature before their 30 minute grace period is up then those involved in breaking the rules will be banned for fourteen days for the first offense.

.

[mitic]

10 pages for a mini-boss dispute geez....grow some more epen folks!

[Modus]

God damn do you people not read Highlights in the dentist office waiting room?

[Keystone]

Should just let the guild call it's own timer when it's ready to engage, first guild to shout it gets it! but the timer would have to be WAYYYY shorter than 30 minutes, say 90seconds to engage or something and if they don't engage by that point they can't engage for 15minutes or some shit. (thats if you really dont' want to have a super fun ks clusterfuck which sounds way more fun than being all civilized to me!)

[Trimm]

When there are only 2 guilds involved in a race to a target, the timer works well. It gives both guilds a defined amount of time before the next guild can act. The problem comes when there are multiple guilds involved at once. 2 main issues arise:

1.) No guild calls time on anyone, because they don't want to concede their first attempt to another guild. Prime example of this was the 4-way race for Draco. Each guild involved believed it was first in line for the kill, so why would we call time on IB/Trans/Fish Bait if we were ready to go? This lead to all guilds engaging at once and the ensuing GM intervention.

2.) Whats to keep guilds from using this to abuse the system? Lets say Gothic Circle is killing Hate trash and Maestro spawns. IB & Divinity trackers spot this and guilds mobilize. IB has 12 in zone with a 3rd group ready to port up, and Divinity has 15 in zone a few seconds before IB. Whats to keep us from making a deal with GC to call 30 minutes on them just to buy time and keep IB locked out? I admit it's hypothetical and not likely to happen, but people are smart and can always find a way to abuse the system.

I don't see any perfect solution to the problem. The server needs a cut-and-dry set of rules that clearly shows who is in the right and who isn't, with as little GM interaction as possible. I don't know if this exists, but hopefully the guild meeting with bring us one step closer.

[TheDudeAbides]

IB has gone full retard

What a surprise