When are they Implementing the Charm Nerf?

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Swarm kitting bards? hmm?

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We're just going in circles here.

Wait................................... this pun was accidental?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wait................................... this pun was accidental?

I swear, I did not make that on purpose ... but I'm so glad you caught it, and now I will pretend like it was entirely intentional [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DMN]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's why the people I keep referring to (eg. Dolalin) have posted evidence to the Bug forums.

wow. look at those goal posts move. proof and evidence are not the same thing.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that doesn't mean there isn't evidence of how it worked. Also, it's like you're completely ignored my Street Fighter II example: you don't need to know exactly how the original worked to know the emulator isn't emulating it correctly.

i didn't even read your analogy past streetfighter. it was dumb. analogies are incredibly poor ways to communicate ideas, and you only use them when someone lacks a frame of reference to understand something. if you can't properly comminucate ideas when we are all sitting here have decades of experience with this game, then there is something seriously wrong with your communication skills -- or, more likely, you are just blowing smoke because that's alll you've got.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We'll have to wait for the fix to see, but here's why I think you're wrong: Enchanters in live were not soloing gods, or charmers in groups, on live during classic! So we have tons of historical evidence that color flux didn't make them so, because (for two years, across tens of servers) it didn't do that.

*We* don't have to wait, though you might. Enchanters were the stongest dungeon solo'r recogized by everyone that was in the upper spectrum of players mid way through kunark. addditonally they would use charm pets until they had bokren and staggered the spawns in the camps they wanted to hold when in groups. then they would lose the pet as there was no real need to keep it. But you've never been in the upper spectrum of eq players, so your ignorance is understandable; your persistence in maintaining it is not.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by cannobeers3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The entire, "Nobody did it back then because internet connection" nonsense is almost appalling. Sorry you were a teen in the sticks while many of us had plenty of bandwidth elsewhere.

Confirmation bias and feelings are not conducive to pragmatic conversation.

it must be sad to live in a world of so many splendid colors yet only see things in black and white.

Truth is, it wasn't as simple as people just didn't have access to cable. While it is true that a significant portion ofthe population could not actually get cable, "the sticks" as you say, i'd wager that the majority of people who didn't have cable or better COULD have had cable. The problem was having to convince mumsy and/or dadsy to shell out 150+ dollars a month so you can more effectively stare at elf tiddies all day, a habbit they are already increasingly concerned with. needless to say, many kids couldn't formulate the right pitch to sell their parent(s) on it, especially since they were already paying for a second phone line most likely. And ya 150ish is about right if they hadn't already been using cable(adjusted for inflation). Even as a young adullt having to shell at that kind of cash when you are just starting out in life is not particularly appealing.

[-Catherin-]

Now consider this:

As far as we know, charm itself had no fundamental changes from its inception right up to the point where it got nerfed around GoD. How is it exactly that something that was too risky and not worth using all of a sudden is considered way too powerful?

Keep in mind also, that by this point in EQ’s timeline, a caster in cloth was lucky to survive one round of NPC melee. The gap in power between an NPC and a player continued to widen as the game matured. The risk of charming was actually increasing.

So since we are talking about facts, help me understand how charm, which remained pretty much the same over those years, all of a sudden was too powerful to keep as is? What exactly changed in those years?

It was hardware, internet, and general knowledge of the game that changed. It is a fact that these things took exponential leaps over the years. They became the norm rather than the exception. But I really am asking this question too. Something about charm itself may have actually been changed to suddenly make it OP that nobody has found or mentioned. I’m willing to concede when I’m wrong, and if someone can find some evidence of this it would go a long way towards this discussion.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it must be sad to live in a world of so many splendid colors yet only see things in black and white.

Truth is, it wasn't as simple as people just didn't have access to cable. While it is true that a significant portion ofthe population could not actually get cable, "the sticks" as you say, i'd wager that the majority of people who didn't have cable or better COULD have had cable. The problem was having to convince mumsy and/or dadsy to shell out 150+ dollars a month so you can more effectively stare at elf tiddies all day, a habbit they are already increasingly concerned with. needless to say, many kids couldn't formulate the right pitch to sell their parent(s) on it, especially since they were already paying for a second phone line most likely. And ya 150ish is about right if they hadn't already been using cable(adjusted for inflation). Even as a young adullt having to shell at that kind of cash when you are just starting out in life is not particularly appealing.

I wasn't paying any 150 bucks a month for cable in '99, even adjusting for inflation. I first got it in February '99. Neither was I a little kid. However, as you say, things aren't black and white. Having cable was only a partial help; EQ was still designed to run on a modem and had only a limited transfer rate from the host. Cable provided for a stable connection without the frequent disconnects so often suffered by modem users, but it did NOT match the ping and low latency of modern high-bandwidth services. The kids who only got broadband later on wouldn't remember that aspect, either. EQ was playable with a 300 ping, but I wouldn't have wanted to hold a charmed hasted pet with a 300 ping. Cable took that to usually about a 100 to 150 ping which is still slow enough I see millennials here on P99 call those ping times "unplayable" (hah!), which probably highlights the progression of technology. Either way you still had horrible lag and various wierdness in over-crowded zones because that was a function of the limited data rate from the host, independent of connection type.

I do not believe charm or lull mechanics on P99 perfectly replicate those of the original game (it's an emulator, of course it doesn't), but your own arguments also have truth behind them. Even with mechanics pulled straight out of a 2000-era host players aren't going to play the same way they did back then for a large variety of reasons, up to and including it's easy to be brave when you have pocket clerics always ready to login and there's zero threat from death. No single change would completely affect player behavior. If P99 players have proven anything, it's that they're a clever and resourceful bunch who'll adapt to nearly any change.

Danth

[DMN]

well, i wasn't around when that happened so i can't speak with any certianty on it but my loose grasp on it suggests it had more to do not just with bards swarming but mass aoe in dungeons, because both things lead to zone disruptions, not etirely because they are unclassic.

[loramin]

And if you can show me evidence that the Enchanters not playing anything like they did in classic is just a reflection of player knowledge, and not deficiencies in (a very difficult to get right) part of the emulator, I'd agree.

But you can't, and again smarter people than me have shown (with evidence, not just their "feels" like you and I) how factors like channeling in fact aren't classic here.

[DMN]

unfortuntely the onus isn't on me to prove anything, it's on you/others to do so. Even more unfortunately, it will prove an impossibility since no one has the original source code. And for the trifecta of loramin sadness, even if you massivley nerf channeling it will only make enchanters that much more powerful(relatively speaking), as ive mentioned before: color flux.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

unfortuntely the onus isn't on me to prove anything, it's on you/others to do so.

That's why the people I keep referring to (eg. Dolalin) have posted evidence to the Bug forums.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even more unfortunately, it will prove an impossibility since no one has the original source code.

But that doesn't mean there isn't evidence of how it worked. Also, it's like you're completely ignored my Street Fighter II example: you don't need to know exactly how the original worked to know the emulator isn't emulating it correctly.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And for the trifecta of loramin sadness, even if you massivley nerf channeling it will only make enchanters that much more powerful(relatively speaking), as ive mentioned before: color flux.

We'll have to wait for the fix to see, but here's why I think you're wrong: Enchanters in live were not soloing gods, or charmers in groups, on live during classic! So we have tons of historical evidence that color flux didn't make them so, because (for two years, across tens of servers) it didn't do that.