Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These racial debates exist because there really is not an objective best race/class combination for every single class, especially shaman. There are a lot of grey areas, highly based on which situation you're in. Until you can prove that in every possible scenario an Ogre is superior, which clearly in your guide that's not the case, this debate will continue to go on. Unlike an iksar monk, or barbarian rogue, the shaman race debate will never end because of how diverse the racial advantages are.

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins in the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: Your argument falls flat when you claim Iksar Monks are objectively the best, because there are fringe cases where Human Monks are superior. Human monks have the best fist ratio, a smaller experience penalty, and better faction, for example. But Iksars are the "best" because they are better most of the time[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins the the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said you claimed ogres are the best in all scenarios. I’m saying the fact that you can’t claim they are the best in all scenarios means there is no best shaman race. Your guide is great for highlighting the different scenarios and letting people decide which race is the best.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins in the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: Your argument falls flat when you claim Iksar Monks are objectively the best, because there are fringe cases where Human Monks are superior. Human monks have the best fist ratio, a smaller experience penalty, and better faction, for example. But Iksars are the "best" because they are better most of the time[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Best means best at being able to perform the duties of your class in any given scenario. None of those human monk abilities have anything to do with being a better monk at the end state of velious. Those are all quality of life, and the fist delay is irrelevant in velious. You cannot say the same for shaman, hence the heavily debated topic and why your guide is an excellent summary of the shaman racial advantages but not an objective proof to the overall best shaman race.

[Danth]

You do gloss over duo/group content at level 60 somewhat, though perhaps not unfairly. How do I mean? Let's put it this way: If some shaman with a partner kills a named as a duo within the ~6 minute duration of Turgur's then you're looking at a maximum of maybe 500 HP of extra healing from racial regeneration that the shaman wouldn't otherwise have, and in real world practice rather less than that. Troll or iksar is inarguably "better" in such a case than an ogre who isn't being hit but the victory rings rather hollow. Sure you could add those types of disclaimers to your guide but why would you want to do that when it's long enough already? After all it's a wiki article, not a book.

I still regard troll as the min-max choice for general use, but not because I disagree with any of your data. I rather like the data, actually. Rather I weigh some factors differently. For example I place more emphasis on the reality that the majority of characters created on P1999 never make it to level 60 at all. That is a difference of priority, not of fact. I see your side of it too, hence why I've said several times in this thread that I like your guide regardless of that type of differing opinion.

Danth

[Fammaden]

Iksar > barb for fashion. Prove me wrong.

[kjs86z]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

I agree lol. However, having a detailed debate is for people who disagree with statements this succinct. You cannot fight "Troll is the best!" with "Ogre is the best!". That ends up being very circular. Also, "troll for everything else" isn't really true, as FSI can still work quite well in group/raid situations. I think a better summary would be:

"Ogre for end game solo.

Barbarian for fashion and guild bots.

Iksar for being the least common shaman race (fashion and cool points).

Troll for the best solo/duo leveling experience."

EDIT: This is again why I rate Ogres the best. One of the most enticing factors to consider when rolling a Shaman is their ability to do well in all scenarios: Soloing, Duoing, Grouping, and Raiding. This flexibility means most people should ensure their solo capabilities are at peak performance, because Shamans already do very well in all scenarios. However, soloing is still the most challenging of these scenarios, because Shamans have a much harder time dealing with multiple mobs simultaneously. Having even one extra person playing with you increases a Shaman's capabilities by a large margin, including their ability to deal with multiple mobs.

This is why Trolls/Ogres are always at the top of the list. Trolls have the best solo capability Pre-Torpor, while Ogres have the best solo capability Post-Torpor. This is why Iksars are generally rated the worst, because Jaundiced Bone Bracer is a very important soloing tool. It is very useful Pre-Torpor when you are trying to reach level 60, and it can still be used effectively Post-Torpor. When it comes to the Diety Necklaces, they are good leveling tools, but lose a lot of efficacy once you get to 60 and acquire Torpor. I honestly wish the Innoruuk Necklace had a better snare, or there were high priority targets to use the Cazic Thule Necklaces on. That would actually give Shamans some ways to break the mold of their class restrictions, and make the racial debate more spicy.

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

[Gustoo]

Yep good thread all.

All the races are fine.

Ogres are the best
Barbarians are the best to be so you can be a human instead of a monster, and be not KOS in all the nice places.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also think your claim dilutes the guide you have created, which I can appreciate the research and a lot more people may have read if you would have presented it more as that instead of some end all to the shaman racial debate.

Thank you! The goal of this guide is to try and be an end all to the debate. I believe a lot of confusion on this subject has been generated over the years precisely because quite a few people have this odd idea that video games (or Everquest specifically) are somehow not quantifiable in objective terms. I am not aiming this comment at you to specifically single you out, it is just an observation I have had after years of playing the game and reading the forums. If there are a lot of people out there who do not want to read my guide because they do not believe the racial debate is quantifiable, that is a problem of understanding video games on their part, not a problem with me or my guide. It really isn't that difficult to quantify the benefits of Troll/Iksar Regeneration. Regeneration is simply adding two values together every 6 seconds. That can be predicted with 100% certainty, assuming no crazy bugs occur. I haven't seen any tick related bugs in the many years I have played on this server, so it isn't like you can exploit the tick to give you a large increase in Regeneration, unless you try cheating. The ability to get an extra tick's worth of damage or regeneration on certain spells isn't a bug per-se, it is simply a necessary consequence of how they needed to limit data transfer back in the days of 56k modems.

As a programmer myself, I can tell you that games, while complex, are not some miraculous machine that can spontaneously generate a plethora unexpected events (like real life). Yes, complex games can give rise to interesting bugs (unexpected events), but they are still well within the bounds of video games if you understand how they work. It isn't like Skynet will be born out of World of Warcraft. That is simply out of the bounds of the codebase's capabilities. Everquest overall is a very stable game, and the existing bugs or exploits have been VERY well documented and defined. A Shamans capabilities are strictly defined, as are the mechanics of the game. Unless you are cheating, it is very easy to find the limitations of a Shaman. If you watch my videos, the strategies employed in them are the primary methods of playing a Shaman. I am not saying people do not play differently, or cannot play differently. I am not trying to FORCE people to play in a specific way. The simple reality is games have classes because those classes are designed to be played in a specific way. This is why some classes can fear kite, for example, and others cannot. Of course you could play a Torpor Shaman without using Torpor and Cannibalize together. But I do not think most people would agree with that tactic, even though it could be done. They certainly wouldn't encourage other players to do so, and they wouldn't believe this suggestion is forcing people to play their way.

The idea here is to help people understand how a Shaman works, so they can use them correctly, and make the best decisions possible. If someone is knowledgeable enough to create a character for a very specific purpose or fight, they probably do not need my guide in the first place. For MOST people, they create a Shaman to play a Shaman in the "normal" way. That means there is a "best" race to accommodate the most common denominator of player. This is why I have a few different categories in my guide, to make sure people understand which race is best for which playstyle. The reason why the "overall best" Shaman race is the focus of the guide is because it is the most complex subject. Trolls automatically win the "best race while leveling" debate, so I don't really see a need to go very in depth on that part of the guide if someone doesn't think they will level to 60. It is the same thing with the "raid only" Shamans. That is honestly a minority of players, because one of the biggest draws of a Shaman is their soloing capabilities. Most "raid only" Shamans are bots to be honest.