Paradigm Shit

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by AmazingLoot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First, if you look at any guild on this server, the top brass of the guild (leader and officers) are some of, if not the, best geared within their respective guilds, regardless of loot distribution system. So, saying LC guild awards best items to its officers is a moot point. That's like saying Aftermath DKP system is unfair because Detoxx, Alde, et all. have amazing gear, or Awakened DKP system is biased because Eratani, Kelz, and Happyhealz have amazing gear. Or that DKP systems are crazy in that a druid won the very first Yelinak head in BG (oh, he also happened to be the guild leader... hmm....)

Truth is, any loot distribution system is only fair if the leadership designs it so, and people support it. There's plenty of people who complain about unfair stuff in DKP guilds. I've had people in some DKP guilds complain to me that officers hog all the best DKP generating tracking/activities, or that officers do spot awards of DKP to make sure their favored crew always have the DKP they need for any item they want.

Or, your guild is struggling on an encounter, and you spend 5 hours pulling and clearing but earn the same DKP as the dude who logs in 2 minutes before the kill and earns the same amount of DKP (because it's dragon kill points, after all)? Or you are actively working to make sure your force is ready or pulling a dragon, and I'm the DPS monk playing PUBG or Dota2 with EQ minimized and GINA triggers for when someone checks to see if I'm really just AFK?

On almost every guild on this server, DKP never decays, so what about the dude who earned a ton of DKP two years ago doing small, easy stuff (because at that point, the guild was smaller/less skilled and was rewarding more DKP for easy stuff) randomly reappears and has more DKP than the folks who've spent months trying to down more difficult content but with less DKP to show for it?

And that's just earning DKP. How about spending it? Is it really fair that that you and I both want the same item, I have 1900 DKP and you have 1700, so the first time it drops, you bid 1700, forcing me to bid 1701 to get it, then the 2nd time it drops, I snag it for 5 DKP because no one else bid? If 1 dkp = 1 hour of raiding or 1 kill, didn't you just have to do way, way more work to get the same item? How's that fair? What about the dude who (because it never decays), logs in after a 6 month hiatus because he sees a Vulak batphone and blows his DKP and gets the item over the people who worked to make sure his guild could even kill Vulak?

Or, I play a rarely played class (ie: paladin or shadowknight), so I can pick up a ton of class-specific but amazing gear for very little DKP, and thus have plenty of DKP left to outbid others for all/all stuff (so I get more of the best all/all items simply because I can save more than say, a monk or warrior who has a lot of competition.) Granted, you have to play one of those classes, so I guess there's fairness in that.

A LC system can account for, and solve, for all of the problems above. In truth, so can a DKP system if the people running it are fair and sane. It all comes down to trust in the leadership and how the system is designed. Both DKP and LC can work, or fail, as they have, did and do on classic EQ, on p1999, and on any other MMORPG out there.

That being said, I personally know that the LC at PS had the audacity to give someone an amazing item off the Statue of Rallos Zek - to a dude who is not even 60, rarely raids and plays a scrub class no one thinks has a purpose (other than dying). Said dude logs in infrequently and has limited playtime, yet wastes his time helping guild members farm consumables, tracking down winged horses and random frogs and asking in /gu if anyone needs the services of his (useless) class. Officer favoritism at its worst.

Great post.

[jilena]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The greatest difference between LC and DKP, is that LC places individuals' fates in the hands of a select few. DKP places it with the individual. Both are corruptible, but the fundamental difference is a deferrence to authority and preference or lack thereof for an even playing field.

LC also functions more closely as a skinner box promoting addictive behavior by randomizing rewards. Keep pressing the button and you might receive a reward when someone feels you deserve it. You can't plan for it or manage your time to achieve it, you just hafta keep pulling the lever and hope the numbers line up :c

not an indictment on PS, lotta nice people in there.

LC also gives a small up and coming guild the ability to put gear where it really counts to push through increasingly more difficult content. While it's not "fair" that the main tank(s), dps, and clerics get geared out quicker than anyone else... It certainly makes it possible to kill harder targets faster. If you start with DKP the loot distribution is certainly more "fair" but handing out a single piece of loot to everyone in the guild before one person gets a second piece it's going to take longer to progress than if you quickly gear up your tanks/healers/rogues/etc.

Then of course the bigger you get the more of a clusterfuck LC becomes and the more appealing DKP becomes. So I think LC to start with transition into DKP is the powerplay. Preferably after all officer alts are geared of course.

[Wonkie]

Originally Posted by jilena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LC also gives a small up and coming guild the ability to put gear where it really counts to push through increasingly more difficult content. While it's not "fair" that the main tank(s), dps, and clerics get geared out quicker than anyone else... It certainly makes it possible to kill harder targets faster. If you start with DKP the loot distribution is certainly more "fair" but handing out a single piece of loot to everyone in the guild before one person gets a second piece it's going to take longer to progress than if you quickly gear up your tanks/healers/rogues/etc.

Then of course the bigger you get the more of a clusterfuck LC becomes and the more appealing DKP becomes. So I think LC to start with transition into DKP is the powerplay. Preferably after all officer alts are geared of course.

rogue gear is extremely pointless other than primals.

cleric gear, too. adding 1 more cleric is more valuable than 3 months of farming.

hope this helps!

[Wonkie]

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lmao so true

Nothing like loot council to saturate your raid force with necro and druid mains bc mains get priority

With DKP you can show up on your useful raid toon and bid your your cuck alt

Fucking retards

she's 2/3 wrong so she's dumber than 3/5ths ppls

[shortshot444]

Naww not to much druid love in PS LC, i had to try wayyy to hard to get an item such as Elder Spirits off 40th track (Sold for Guildbank) . Let alone win a LC on non-druid only item. But i am not sour like i said previously any participation in a loot council guild such as PS, and like any other guild out here is voluntary. And i sure did't leave the guild because i didn't receive and item. I didn't expect to win said item (I expected someone whos name starts with a G to be up for this one HONESTLY) , i left because of WHO won said item. Being in a system with no control and losing 3 large LC items in a row to the same individual in a relatively short period of time. Call me and others a loot whore all you would like, and laugh. That sure is convent i guess. I dont deny the position im taking is one of entitlement sure i can admit that in some part. Im sure some of you know who i am and i will tell you my best item left from parting is the many good memories. ( Oh Shiz and the track bp i click it daily even tho some may not see the value.)

For my time in the guild LC worked pretty well for the mostt part.... Killing with a great smaller core of people you get to know them well. In an environment such as it was back then a system like this can work much more efficiently. At the end of the day only those in the guild really need care about the system. Good Luck Paradigm Shift on recent big killz and gratz on the AG PS kill tonight ! We used to joke about how a good RNF is just how you know you have hit the "scene" as a way of putting it. This is my 2nd rants and flames post ever so.... not sure if its fun? i think not? Can i Win... No never not in RNF.... It could be said once you enter RNF nobody wins :P . Its easy to Rant and Flame, but i am sure some of you know how much work these "loot systems" take i have not done it personally , but let me say its a thankless job and should not be perceived as a easy task . I way always happy to see other very deserving members beat me on items, but you know the 3 peat... ya know the first time then he heating up then hes on FIRE and you cant stop someone once they are on fire if NBA jam taught you annnything comeon.

Treelord - If you dont know mee oooooo well enjoy! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[shortshot444]

Correct me if im wrong but Paradigm Shift as a guild was founded because of Loot dispute, not unlike this one. Where they or we all loot whores? where they or are we crying about loot. In this Way you Can see things go full circle i am sure Sheys? can respect the irony.

[Baylan295]

Originally Posted by AmazingLoot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said, I personally know that the LC at PS had the audacity to give someone an amazing item off the Statue of Rallos Zek - to a dude who is not even 60, rarely raids and plays a scrub class no one thinks has a purpose (other than dying). Said dude logs in infrequently and has limited playtime, yet wastes his time helping guild members farm consumables, tracking down winged horses and random frogs and asking in /gu if anyone needs the services of his (useless) class. Officer favoritism at its worst.

I don’t think I was tagged for when this happened, but Lano for President.

[Wfrench1234]

Originally Posted by Baylan295 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don’t think I was tagged for when this happened, but Lano for President.

God forbid a nice human being get rewarded for being a nice human being. Guy would be 60 ten times over if he wasn’t always donating his time to help others. 9 out of 10 PS members owe their levi cloak to him.

[roziak87]

I understand the distrust a lot of people have towards LC. Sure, it's definitely open to corruption-whatever. But from my perspective it seems fair; and for me, that's enough. I have way more fun killing shit and hanging out with people to really care about what rogue got passed up on this BIS item, or what warrior is fucking raging because they didn't get the armor they wanted. Sorry you don't get an extra 15 HP dude, it's fucking heartbreaking I know.

[Jokesteve]

Originally Posted by roziak87 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand the distrust a lot of people have towards LC. Sure, it's definitely open to corruption-whatever. But from my perspective it seems fair; and for me, that's enough. I have way more fun killing shit and hanging out with people to really care about what rogue got passed up on this BIS item, or what warrior is fucking raging because they didn't get the armor they wanted. Sorry you don't get an extra 15 HP dude, it's fucking heartbreaking I know.

You can hang out with people with a DKP system all the same, except without favoritism of a loot council - heartbreaking I know.