40 day raid ban

[shuklak]

The problem with going with the "accident" story is that it's far too past its prime. Anyone playing eq today has already been a part of groups and guilds where they or their group intentionally griefed someone and then laughed while proclaiming it was an accident. Its as classic as snakes kicking.

[kotton05]

We needed this in kunark...

Better late than never but never late is better!

[TimTheToolmanTaylor]

ITT guy who's never raided tells people who raid for a living they are wrong. lewl. next you know he's going to go tell a doctor how to perform surgery.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by TimTheToolmanTaylor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ITT guy who's never raided tells people who raid for a living they are wrong. lewl. next you know he's going to go tell a doctor how to perform surgery.

I just bolded the real problem.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is a hypothetical for you Loramin. Tell me how Anon would respond. Please read and consider.

Both <Anonymous> and <Kittens Who Meow> are in arena and both want to kill Derakor the Vindicator. After some discussion neither guild is willing to back down and whoever pulls it first will likely get that sweet Vindi BP. Now, Kittens pull it first. The engage looks good, but they didn't properly set up rampage damage, and the raid is wiping. Vindi ends up socialing on Anonymous and wipes both guilds. Kittens, being the honorable guild they are, concedes this Vindi, and Anonymous is clear to make a pull. Kittens decided they want to keep farming coldain armor and they do not leave arena. At this point only Kittens and Anonymous are in the zone and Anonymous tries to make a pull. The pull goes bad and trains the Kittens who have already conceded the mob but stuck around.

Now, being there is no other competition in the zone does Anonymous.

A. Concede Vindi and walk away, even though there is no more competition in the zone.
B. Pull Vindi again, because the guild Anonymous trained already conceded and are no longer competing.
C. Offer to group with Kittens and kill the mob.

Genuinely interested in what you realistically think would happen.

Again, engagement, yay! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But what do I think? Well here's what I don't think: I don't think Rogean and Sirken made rules which make it impossible to raid Vindi when there's a group XPing nearby. Of course, if Anon doesn't take reasonable steps to avoid impacting the XP group (like say they pick a particular kill spot which is convenient over a less convenient one away from the XP group) they could get a suspension, but if they take all reasonable measures to avoid impacting the XP group I'm skeptical that Rogean's/Sirken's rules say they will get a suspension for it.

And even if that is the case, those are the rules, but that doesn't make them impossible to follow! If those really are the rules, Anon could play by the rules by hanging out until the XP group goes away, and risk losing their Vindi. Sounds lame, but then when the roles are reversed Kittens would have to do the same, and the key thing is that Anon would have chosen actions which don't lead to a suspension.

But again, while I'm not a rules lawyer or A/A member, I'm skeptical of the idea that a Kittens (or any other) XP group can make it impossible for another guild to raid Vindi without that raid potentially eating a suspension if anything goes wrong.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At this point only Kittens and Anonymous are in the zone and Anonymous tries to make a pull. The pull goes bad and trains the Kittens who have already conceded the mob but stuck around.

Now, being there is no other competition in the zone does Anonymous.

A. Concede Vindi and walk away, even though there is no more competition in the zone.
B. Pull Vindi again, because the guild Anonymous trained already conceded and are no longer competing.
C. Offer to group with Kittens and kill the mob.

Genuinely interested in what you realistically think would happen.

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A, B, or C?

I still don't think those are the only options.

If there is literally no way to kill Vindi without significant risk of training Kittens AND the rules say that if you take that chance you risk a suspension, then A). Like I said, if that truly is the case Anon can choose not to risk suspension, wait until the Kittens group goes away, and kill Vindi then. If that happened there'd be a real risk Anon would lose enough people to where we couldn't do Vindi and might lose him ... but that's better than being suspended. If next week our roles are reversed and Kittens does pull through us, well hey they get suspended and on the third week there's no competition for Vindi.

But really I think the answer is to do B), but adhere to the rules and be respectful while doing it. That might mean fighting Vindi somewhere else, or asking the Kittens group to move just before the pull, or whatever. Again I haven't read every last sentence of the raid rules plus the 500-page compendium of rules interpretations and history, but even so I don't buy that Rogean and Sirken intended for an XP group to block a Vindi raid. If that's truly the way the rules are then I'd expect guilds to fuck with each other all over the place by setting up XP groups at inconvenient locations [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Psionide]

Velious sure did fix the raid scene here...

[darkleg]

Originally Posted by Psionide [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious sure did fix the raid scene here...

bring on Luclin it is the cure

[Bones]

Originally Posted by Psionide [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious sure did fix the raid scene here...

best post

[mefdinkins]

Think of it as... there's a bunch of 'golden rules.' Don't train each other, don't interfere with the other guild. The rules change, sometimes a practice that is okay gets changed with an explicit rule or after a suspension which invoked a unique interpretation of the rule. The game is incredibly complex and parties min/max so sometimes absurd tactics become the regular practice. Microsecond advantages like Alt+Tabbing or WandCorpsePreTargeting become the norm and CSR re-actively make policy adjustments affecting players engaging in these behaviors.

Beyond that, you have to be relatively experienced to understand all the in game mechanics. Both Awakened and AM have practice servers where you can learn how to pull in TOV and test out aggro and other in game mechanics. Despite all this, a player peaking his head around a corner or /Q'ing in the wrong spot can kill a whole raid. People say it's the leaders but it's the level of competition and desire for self preservation that leads to the top raid entities for getting very close to the line and pushing each other towards or over the line at every opportunity. This isn't a game where you can watch an instant replay in slow motion and see exactly everything as it unfolded. Raiders record their pulls, people dissect what happened, question where mobs came from and where they were going - then often make split second decisions on whether a potential violation occurred and how to rectify that violation. This often happens when one guild is actively raiding and the other is actively Sherlock Holmes'ing the evidence to see if a potential violation occurred.

Just this past week I'm sure that Am/Aw engaged in 'negotiations' and discussions over the rules being followed on Lord Feshlak, Vulak, Lady M, and Yelinak. I'm sure there was a few other instances that led to the parties engaging each other saying, "wtf happened" or "are you really going to kill that?" or the famous "comcede" shouts. The stakes are generally pretty high in these scenarios but you do not want to risk being wrong or get taken advantage of.

Many of the rules have been changed/created in an arbitrary manner. I'm not bashing staff, I am an attorney and I believe a lot of rules and laws are arbitrary. The GMs have more important things to deal with and there's not a great working relationship between Aw/Am. The standards for what is right or wrong constantly change. Before, you could resolve an issue by conceding a mob - yet Aw was suspended in an unprecedented ruling for training CSG despite the fact that the mob they interfered with and trained were both conceded. Aftermath was suspended for not tracking CSG's mobs. Do you think AM would have sent one message with a spawn time if they had any inclination their behavior could be interpreted as violating server rules?

If you look at the nature of the in game mechanics and the level of competition. You would see that people with the purest intentions are still very at risk of violating the rules. Aw/Am are smart enough to realize it's better to raid for 30/40 days than kill a single Vulak.

So please recognize that the nature of EQ on P99, the level of competition, the mechanics of the game, the ever adjusting rule set, and the enforcers of the rules then tell me you can't comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally.