Do Not Engage: Warriors Vs. PALs/SHDs

[Estu]

I've heard the argument here that warriors are superior tanks in classic EQ because they have better defensive skills, hence better damage mitigation. However, they have issues holding aggro, to the point that they sometimes need to have the DPS classes delay engaging the mob for a while as they gain hate.

Here is my question. While the warrior is doing this, the mob is effectively not taking any damage (OK, it's taking appreciable damage, but compared to the damage it would be taking if all DPSers were engaged, it's quite small). Overall, the mob takes longer to die, and will hence spend more time beating on the tank. If, on the other hand, your tank is a paladin or a shadowknight, DPS classes can engage immediately (feel free to correct me if I have this wrong), and the mob hence goes down faster, and will spend less time beating on the tank.

How does this extra time spent taking damage compare to the extra damage mitigation warriors have? Can one make a case to use a paladin or a shadowknight instead since the damage taken by the end of the fight might be comparable, or is the superior mitigation so powerful that this issue is minor?

Also, again correct me if I'm wrong, but a warrior has a greater need to focus on DEX and STR gear-wise so that he can hold aggro, while SKs and PALs can afford to gear up with AC, STA, and AGI since they can hold aggro with spells. To what extent does this make a difference in the end game in terms of the ability to soak up damage?

I also hear that warriors get better come Kunark. In what way? Does this mean that SKs and PALs are even less desired?

[Meldor]

Warrior = MT for bosses (Dragons, Gods etc.)

SK/Pal = MT for trash mobs

[quellren]

Originally Posted by Meldor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warrior = MT for bosses (Dragons, Gods etc.)

SK/Pal = MT for trash mobs and exp groups.

/thread.

[Taluvill]

Unless the Warrior is twinked to all hell. Even then, its still probably SK>Pal>>>>>then war.

[Skope]

Taunt button will work in later expansions. Procs are great for keeping and building aggro, but swings + taunt can suffice if you're careful.

Warriors have higher HP and AC and reach the AC cap easier than do the hybrids, allowing them to focus on other stats. If the warrior can manage a quick proc then warrior > sk/pally for tank. There are cases where the warriors are a bit unlucky, but those are few and far in between from what I've noticed.

Quellren, that's not exactly the case. There's a few mobs/scenarios where it's advantageous to use an SK or Pally as a tank rather than a warrior.

EDIT: this is all regarding a raid setting.

[Dantes]

I've never had to have a group wait to engage the mob... ever. That doesn't sound like a very talented group to me. You shouldn't have to wait for your Warrior to establish aggro if he has decent gear.

[quellren]

Originally Posted by Dantes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never had to have a group wait to engage the mob... ever. That doesn't sound like a very talented group to me. You shouldn't have to wait for your Warrior to establish aggro if he has decent gear.

I can pretty much pull aggro at will with a T_rg_r's Insects on something above 85% HP.
I've gotten in the habit of just rooting the damn thing before I even bother with slow. Anything else, and I wear it.

[Lagaidh]

Originally Posted by quellren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can pretty much pull aggro at will with a T_rg_r's Insects on something above 85% HP.
I've gotten in the habit of just rooting the damn thing before I even bother with slow. Anything else, and I wear it.

I've been an EQ paladin forever and this simply will not happen in my group unless I've already died.

I really can't answer the question of "better". The only time I ever think there is a "better" is the instance of a WAR standing up to a raid target. When grinding and working on raid trash, it's all situational.

It's also dependant upon the whole group... not just the tank. Some fools will always try to burn their entire mana pool on incoming before a tank can even cast a spell or push attack.

A lot of times, the reputation that PALs and SHDs are superior tanks in the every day situation is because the DPS contingent of the group wants to play lazily. If the PAL or SHD gets that snap agro early (and they will if they know their class at all), then the DPS can just go into nuke and stab mode and not think about any other tactic of play.

However, if the group knows their classes as well as that PAL or SHD, then you can put a WAR in there and never notice the difference in efficiency. I know the number crunchers can make a case against this, but shit people, why do some folks insist upon being at the bleeding edge of efficiency in a pastime? Really?

This conversation always boils down to that: concrete roles and maximum efficiency. I've always bristled at this viewpoint even if I respect it. I've played in all manner of group combinations and the times I've always had a blast is where the mix wasn't ideal and we still kicked ass. That is a sign that you are with good players and not just in a paint-by-numbers grindfest.

Play the game. Play the game. Advancement is a side effect.

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Dantes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never had to have a group wait to engage the mob... ever. That doesn't sound like a very talented group to me. You shouldn't have to wait for your Warrior to establish aggro if he has decent gear.

Could anyone else confirm/deny this? I hear a lot of talk about warriors having to wait before letting the rest of the group engage.

Also, I'm interested in exp groups and level 50 groups as well as raids. Why exactly are warriors only preferred as main tanks for raids? At what level do they become preferable to SKs and PALs in general as main tanks?

[Kavanah]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Could anyone else confirm/deny this? I hear a lot of talk about warriors having to wait before letting the rest of the group engage.

Also, I'm interested in exp groups and level 50 groups as well as raids. Why exactly are warriors only preferred as main tanks for raids? At what level do they become preferable to SKs and PALs in general as main tanks?

I know that most of my groupies will engage right when I do. If we are fighting blue cons its easy for me to keep aggro, above that it usually pings around until I land a proc.