Discussion on 20 minute engage rule for undead bard (trak guts) when next patch comes

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And since the rate at which scales will enter the market is 1/4 the rate at which guts can enter the market, UDB will never be the bottleneck. And if someone decides to farm guts for MQ, the guts will tank in value because of the lack of scales. And if someone decides to farm UDBs for BPs, the already low value of BPs will tank further. Then this cost will have to be divided by the 12 (a minimum?) it takes to kill UDB-Trak and the ROI will be terrible.

when the price of one good (trak guts) goes down the demand for a related/complimentary good (white scale) goes up. when the demand for a good goes up (white scale) the price of the good goes up.

i.e. white scales are going up in price.

how much they go up is still in question. it hasn't been enough time to see where the new market price will settle at. considering that the bottleneck for the bard epic now is mostly the cost of the whitescale the value of the scale is extremely high compared to the old market price. My guess is about 90-120k after the first few weeks of real opportunism....slowly decreasing over time.

also, although not as dramatic, price of red scale should also be going up a bit for a short while.

[Man0warr]

Shouldn't red scale drop in Hole now though?

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shouldn't red scale drop in Hole now though?

Nortlav should be in with the epic revamps.


Nagafen, Ragefire, Talendor, and Nortlav make for plenty of red scales.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nortlav should be in with the epic revamps.


Nagafen, Ragefire, Talendor, and Nortlav make for plenty of red scales.

How were white and green scales overlooked?

I don't mean here. I mean back in the day. Did they just "forget"? There were enough bards and warriors back then to put in UDB and Nortlav, this would do little to increase access to epics for Bards/Wars.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shouldn't red scale drop in Hole now though?

correct. i would still think with the sudden burst of demand (as about 50ish bards suddenly need to buy one to finish their epic) you can get away with some short term price gauging if you wanted to.

[Man0warr]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How were white and green scales overlooked?

I don't mean here. I mean back in the day. Did they just "forget"? There were enough bards and warriors back then to put in UDB and Nortlav, this would do little to increase access to epics for Bards/Wars.

Green scales drop off Hoshkar eventually, not sure if it was this patch or later.

[fastboy21]

It was prob a combination of oversight and wars having alternative weapon setups that were as good or better for warriors than epic by the time they got around to doing fixing this stuff.

Its EQ...lots of stuff never made "good sense".

[Kileras]

white/green scales do seem a bit absurd. the urge for non classic in me is strong in regards to these. Would it really be such a huge turnoff to make them drop off a few other mobs?

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Green scales drop off Hoshkar eventually, not sure if it was this patch or later.

I believe you that they did this, but doesn't that strike anyone else as weird?

One of the things that I think is fun in the game is trying to figure out what motivated the developers to do things the way they did things.

UDB, Fay and VSR changes were unambiguously designed to increase the ability of family/casual guilds to finish epics in the traditional go-out-and-slay-the-dragon way. Epics were not "uber loot", they were long personal quests that were seen as a rite of passage/culmination of the individual efforts that players--at least they were viewed this way once Velious came about.

So it seems weird to make changes to so many epics that make them more available to the casual-raid groups and and then leave Bard and Warrior epics essentially just as unavailable as they were before. Adding Green Scales to Hoshkar doesn't increase the availability or warrior epics to casual raiders (unless you consider buying them availability, I do not and it seems like the dev's didn't necessarily intend them to be made available in this way). So why were green scales and white scales overlooked?

I assume no original dev's have ever spoken to this particular issue, but maybe someone with better research skills (Ele?) could check?

Originally Posted by Kileras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

white/green scales do seem a bit absurd. the urge for non classic in me is strong in regards to these. Would it really be such a huge turnoff to make them drop off a few other mobs?

Hehe. Here is where I out myself. I've never been a "classic for the sake of classic" person when it comes to the SYSTEMS (buff timers, colored target window, auto-stand on cast....) of the game. But in this case, when Dev intent has been so clearly documented in other epics, I would even advocate for non-classic CONTENT in the form of a nortlav-styled encounter for green and white scales in an appropriate dungeon. Maybe CT for Green Scales and some-place else for White scales. Permafrost would be the obvious choice, but having Vox in there already seems a bit redundant. Maybe a triggered no-drop scales only, non-52 capped Vox?

Rozdak Coldscorn?

[Ele]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How were white and green scales overlooked?

I don't mean here. I mean back in the day. Did they just "forget"? There were enough bards and warriors back then to put in UDB and Nortlav, this would do little to increase access to epics for Bards/Wars.

Not sure. Bards were quite vocal about the lack of access to white dragon scales. Considering most either had to stay sub 53 for Vox, lead but not participate in a pick-up Vox raid or go all the way to 57+ to be able to stand up against Gorenaire.

This Concert Hall poster had a decent rant about it here. Also here, here, and lots of people traded for it. People started coming up with theories like this one or this one that there was an unsolved quest or unfound NPC that would provide the white scale, but none were found (whether that was on purpose or a mistake by Verant who knows).

Hoshkar starts dropping green scales in about 3 months (June 2001). So warriors do get a boost in that department.

Thott had this to say:

Level 60, red scale off Talendor, white scale off Gorenaire.

Desbarolis wrote:
Quote:

These quest's were made for roughly level 50+ players. They were all started in response to the paladin epic, which was originally geared for paladins of nagafen and vox level ranges (and higher), which includes level 47+ paladins.


Paladins have a new epic as well, and it requires the original FA. Verant has stated on numerous occasions that epic weapons are intended to be level 60 weapons, not level 50.

You're 49. That means that for 11 levels you will be fighting in progressively harder areas, and will see weapons drop, progressively better weapons...and all of them will be massively inferior to your current weapon.

I don't see how anyone can not see this as broken.

Unfortunately, there isn't any easy way to ensure lower level people can't get higher level people to help them get an item.

I guess if Verant really wanted the epics to be level 60 weapons, they should have made the end quest NPC respond only to level 60 characters.

The epic quest would then be get all the pieces together, the same as it is now....and level to 60. "You are not yet experienced enough to control a weapon of this power...go, learn more, and return."

For those that got the weapon before 60, good for you, I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything else. It's a great weapon. But you have to admit, it's not right.

--Thott
Guildleader
<Afterlife>