Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fairness is not some objective quality you can measure. As it is subjective, everyone has a differing notion of fairness. In that sense, loot council is more fair in the sense that it doesn't try to hide or deny the subjective nature of loot distribution.

Do you realize that you are arguing a word/concept means the opposite of itself? 'Fair' by definition is free of subjectivity/ bias.

Now that does not mean loot council is a bad system though, just that it is unfair to the individual.

Whether that is good or bad is entirely open for debate since those are subjective evaluations, but just because you feel it is right does not mean you can decide it is fair. It is not ^^

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you realize that you are arguing a word/concept means the opposite of itself? 'Fair' by definition is free of subjectivity/ bias.

Actually, from the dictionary:

in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate

So if you want to get technical, I could create a loot system where the winner is the person whose name is closest to "Orruar". As I scoop up all the loot, I say that the system is fair, since my lootwhoring is perfectly in accordance with the rules.

The definition of fair that you are attempting to use is a contradiction. How do you determine what is fair in an objective sense? Create any "fair" system of DKP and I'll point out a dozen ways in which the system is subjective and "unfair" to some members.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, from the dictionary:



So if you want to get technical, I could create a loot system where the winner is the person whose name is closest to "Orruar". As I scoop up all the loot, I say that the system is fair, since my lootwhoring is perfectly in accordance with the rules.

The definition of fair that you are attempting to use is a contradiction. How do you determine what is fair in an objective sense? Create any "fair" system of DKP and I'll point out a dozen ways in which the system is subjective and "unfair" to some members.

*sigh* Has Google become the oracle of mankind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] ? Click the drop down and you will see 'biased' listed as an antonym. If you want more, take a look at dictionary.com, merriam-Webster or even the Cambridge online dictionary.

DKP is fair because it offers every player the same assured opportunity not subject to the whims of another. You do x, you get y. Everyone gets the same outcome for each event within the system.

With loot council, outcomes are different, completely detached from the event. Again, not saying it is bad here, just that it is inherently not fair.

If you want a scenario, let's go with the following:

DKP Wages:
1/hr
1/target
.5 punctuality
1 conclusion

Pixels:
A: 10dkp
B: 5dkp
C: 1dkp


Pick apart! What's not fair? ^^

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Click the drop down and you will see 'biased' listed as an antonym.

Are you suggesting that human beings can only make biased decisions? Much of human organization is based around the notion that they can make fair decisions. Also, if humans are inherently incapable of being fair, then why would you allow them to create a set of rules to follow? Isn't it just as likely that they would set up the rules in such a way as to benefit themselves? I think you're maybe trying to say that DKP is less exploitable by a nefarious person than loot council, but I don't think there was any argument there.

[Orruar]

Something that may be confusing you: Subjectivity and bias are not the same thing. Find me one definition amongst the myriad that says fair means free from subjectivity.

DKP Wages:
1/hr
1/target
.5 punctuality
1 conclusion

Pixels:
A: 10dkp
B: 5dkp
C: 1dkp

That set of rules is subjective as hell. How did you objectively determine the relative values of targets, hours, etc? How did you objectively determine the value of the items?

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you suggesting that human beings can only make biased decisions? Much of human organization is based around the notion that they can make fair decisions. Also, if humans are inherently incapable of being fair, then why would you allow them to create a set of rules to follow? Isn't it just as likely that they would set up the rules in such a way as to benefit themselves? I think you're maybe trying to say that DKP is less exploitable by a nefarious person than loot council, but I don't think there was any argument there.

No, I was just pointing out that bias/subjectiveness is inherently unfair. You have already asserted that loot council is subjective, so I think we've reached resolution there. As for human capacity to make objective decisions that is a philosophical tangent I'm not interested in devoting my waning mental energy to right now @.@ I do not have an answer to that and I do not expect there is one to be had, though I may find myself pleasantly surprised one day ^^

We do however possess the ability to process information objectively and create systems with objective outcomes. This gift is called logic ^^

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Something that may be confusing you: Subjectivity and bias are not the same thing. Find me one definition amongst the myriad that says fair means free from subjectivity.



That set of rules is subjective as hell. How did you objectively determine the relative values of targets, hours, etc? How did you objectively determine the value of the items?

1. Refer to previous sources and a throw in a thesaurus.
2. Please elaborate. Specifically, how is the system biased/subjective? The values are irrelevant. Change them to whatever you like. That is the point.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Please elaborate. Specifically, how is the system biased/subjective? The values are irrelevant. Change them to whatever you like. That is the point.

If your relative values for each of those rewards/pixels is not subjective, they must be objective. Usually it's somewhat difficult to prove a negative. In this case, I'm giving you the easiest test possible. Show how you objectively arrived at those numbers, without subjective value entering into the mix. I have several more ways to show that set of "rules" is subjective, but this is the simplest.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Rayzor84 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As an example, I've received one pair of planar gloves in over a month of raiding in which I made 4/5 raids (before the raid tines were changed to a time I basically almost never am able to make). I've had people with equal attendance of the same class receive multiple items in a row while I was given something that was rotting.

name and shame.

[erog84]

Been a member/officer/leader in plenty of guilds on eq and wow with loot council, and it has never been innocent of favoritism in some form or another. Someone can preach that it's fair all they want, but I ain't buying it. DKP seems the closest to a fair system (its not perfect).