Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you realize that you are arguing a word/concept means the opposite of itself? 'Fair' by definition is free of subjectivity/ bias.

Actually, from the dictionary:

in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate

So if you want to get technical, I could create a loot system where the winner is the person whose name is closest to "Orruar". As I scoop up all the loot, I say that the system is fair, since my lootwhoring is perfectly in accordance with the rules.

The definition of fair that you are attempting to use is a contradiction. How do you determine what is fair in an objective sense? Create any "fair" system of DKP and I'll point out a dozen ways in which the system is subjective and "unfair" to some members.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, from the dictionary:



So if you want to get technical, I could create a loot system where the winner is the person whose name is closest to "Orruar". As I scoop up all the loot, I say that the system is fair, since my lootwhoring is perfectly in accordance with the rules.

The definition of fair that you are attempting to use is a contradiction. How do you determine what is fair in an objective sense? Create any "fair" system of DKP and I'll point out a dozen ways in which the system is subjective and "unfair" to some members.

*sigh* Has Google become the oracle of mankind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] ? Click the drop down and you will see 'biased' listed as an antonym. If you want more, take a look at dictionary.com, merriam-Webster or even the Cambridge online dictionary.

DKP is fair because it offers every player the same assured opportunity not subject to the whims of another. You do x, you get y. Everyone gets the same outcome for each event within the system.

With loot council, outcomes are different, completely detached from the event. Again, not saying it is bad here, just that it is inherently not fair.

If you want a scenario, let's go with the following:

DKP Wages:
1/hr
1/target
.5 punctuality
1 conclusion

Pixels:
A: 10dkp
B: 5dkp
C: 1dkp


Pick apart! What's not fair? ^^

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Click the drop down and you will see 'biased' listed as an antonym.

Are you suggesting that human beings can only make biased decisions? Much of human organization is based around the notion that they can make fair decisions. Also, if humans are inherently incapable of being fair, then why would you allow them to create a set of rules to follow? Isn't it just as likely that they would set up the rules in such a way as to benefit themselves? I think you're maybe trying to say that DKP is less exploitable by a nefarious person than loot council, but I don't think there was any argument there.

[Erati]

one of the big things that turns me off from loot council is the 'Council vs You' mentality members take on when an item drop doesnt get awarded to THEM

It becomes a mind game and a targeted attack about why each member of the Council felt they didnt deserve the item over Person X. This becomes very personal for the wronged party who usually throws an entire laundry list of 'chores' they did to deserve the item. Constant reassurances that the member was 'close' to receiving the item is required, tho all hell to be paid will be present if the next one does not go his/her way.

Even after reassurances, and even after the council actually has plans to award the next drop similar to that wronged member, the member still usually becomes jaded and their interactions with loot council members outside of raiding or loot decisions become negatively charged as they feel 'anything they do is never enough for them'. Soon it becomes a point of contention where the next little thing that goes awry in the wronged parties mind usually means instant /guildremoval and turncoat tendencies.

Loot council really sucks sometimes, but other than what I described it is one of the best ways for a guild to progress so long as its members believe in the council's decisions

[kaev]

This thread desperately wants to be the poster-child for thatsjustyouropinionman.gif

[Velerin]

Funny thing is in Kunark (outside of VP) so much of the good gear people go crazy about are droppables. If I was really interested in one of those items I'd avoid all the drama, raid the hell out of those mobs with guildies, praise guildies that win them, and just farm some pp and buy one for myself in EC.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Rayzor84 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As an example, I've received one pair of planar gloves in over a month of raiding in which I made 4/5 raids (before the raid tines were changed to a time I basically almost never am able to make). I've had people with equal attendance of the same class receive multiple items in a row while I was given something that was rotting.

name and shame.

[erog84]

Been a member/officer/leader in plenty of guilds on eq and wow with loot council, and it has never been innocent of favoritism in some form or another. Someone can preach that it's fair all they want, but I ain't buying it. DKP seems the closest to a fair system (its not perfect).

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by erog84 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Been a member/officer/leader in plenty of guilds on eq and wow with loot council, and it has never been innocent of favoritism in some form or another. Someone can preach that it's fair all they want, but I ain't buying it. DKP seems the closest to a fair system (its not perfect).

DKP systems have built-in favoritism in one form or another. If you have a rule that says you are ineligible for loot if you haven't raided in X days/weeks/months, you are playing favorites for current raiders. Hell, the whole idea of DKP is to play favorites for those who accrue the most DKP (whoever that happens to be). I've never seen a DKP system that didn't have a ton of small rules and addendums that were meant to prevent unfortunate loot distribution. Each of these is a form of favoritism.

I've always seen the most loot strife in DKP-based guilds. People would constantly bicker over DKP rules and regulations in order to adjust the rules to favor themselves. In contrast, the loot council guilds I've been in have been relatively fair. There will always been questioned loot calls, but as long as the officers can give some reasoning and you have trust in them, it's all good. And if you don't have trust in the leadership of your guild, why the hell are you there in the first place? And certainly the most fucked up loot calls I've seen have taken place in a DKP-based guild.

[erog84]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DKP systems have built-in favoritism in one form or another. If you have a rule that says you are ineligible for loot if you haven't raided in X days/weeks/months, you are playing favorites for current raiders. Hell, the whole idea of DKP is to play favorites for those who accrue the most DKP (whoever that happens to be). I've never seen a DKP system that didn't have a ton of small rules and addendums that were meant to prevent unfortunate loot distribution. Each of these is a form of favoritism.

I've always seen the most loot strife in DKP-based guilds. People would constantly bicker over DKP rules and regulations in order to adjust the rules to favor themselves. In contrast, the loot council guilds I've been in have been relatively fair. There will always been questioned loot calls, but as long as the officers can give some reasoning and you have trust in them, it's all good. And if you don't have trust in the leadership of your guild, why the hell are you there in the first place? And certainly the most fucked up loot calls I've seen have taken place in a DKP-based guild.

Issue # 1 - Blind Trust in your guild leadership. This is the internet, where sadly most people will take advantage if they can. Has happened in too many guilds on p99(and every other game known to man0 to just blindly trust your leadership to make the right call. DKP allows alot more accountability than a loot council where any officer can make up any reason they want.

Issue # 2 - You seem to think that everyone should have equal buying power regardless who raids more. To call it "favorites" for people who invest more time in the guild to get more gear speaks to some type of entitlement mindset.