Question about future custom content

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Glenzig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Go play EQ2 then. This is classic EQ.

EQ2 has its own set of problems. An ideal game would lie somewhere in between.

[Taminy]

Originally Posted by Sadre Spinegnawer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And yes, this is all distant speculation: we shall all be living in Velious for more than a few years here lol. But it is still interesting speculation: what went wrong in Luclin and PoP, and can they be salvaged and redone, so that they don't essentially function as nerfs of classic eq?

Luclin what went wrong:

Everything that shrunk and eliminated the old world. Nexus spires would be ok if the timers were longer and druids/wizards were instantly able to port up there. Using spires as a short cut from WC to EW was stupid. Maybe have one spire only (as mentioned before) OR make it so you can only port down to the same spire you came up with.

I hate trading in EC but Bazaar just wasn't classic no matter how you slice it. Changed the game entirely. Also lead to a lot more RMT plat/gold farming. Duping and other plat/item exploits crashed the economy too big time with the Bazaar. High end traders bought up the most valuable droppable stuff and completely hoarded it when stuff like that happened. I think face to face interactions in EC would help put a stop to this or at least help put the brakes on until the devs can fix (plus name and shame).

To an extent PC and some other exp zones. However, this is moreso a level stratification / server population issue than a ZEM problem. If there aren't enough low to mid level players they are going to have to flock to certain zones. I've been playing my high 20s rogue lately a bit more and population in HK and MM seems just about perfect. Usually can get a group but sometimes groups are full and sometimes there is no group at a camp at all. If there are plenty of low to mid level players you won't have to go to PC.

AAs to an extent. Mostly the implementation and the fact that they were doing XP over and over. Though Luclin AAs weren't too horrible (besides possible immersion stuff). The difference between a char with full AAs and a char with minimal but class defining AAs was not gigantic. But during later expansions the AA grind for raid (or even group) required stuff was absurd.

Lore stuff and graphics are subjective.

What Luclin did right:

Other than Bazaar and Nexus, the world was still large. Lots of old and new stuff to do. Go wherever you want. More to see. Lots of old and new raid content to gear up with. Mudflation was not really too bad much more than Velious anyway. Biggest change/issue might be all the FT gear.

Faction system with Katta and the other zones was interesting too.

What PoP did wrong:

Simple. PoK books, level cap, added AAs, lack of factions, massive mudflation, graveyards, HUBS and XP changes/ZEMs. With PoP there was utterly no reason to do anything in the old world other than low and mid levels and that was just grinding. Once you got past 50 just head to the planes and grind there. It didn't even make sense to level in older zones if you wanted to because XP was so much different. And sure you had hubs even in classic (such as East Commons) but it was silly that there was MGB c3 every 10 minutes.... that was within a 5 minute walk from where you were XPing. Really changed the game from sandbox to theme park IMO.

What PoP did right:

Raids/lore. At least the idea of taking on the gods.

[Indefinite]

Ghostship casino

[tanknspank]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Problem with this is that game will cater even more to specific classes and make others even more dependable. We already have classes that can sow and port and bind and heal, and get cash for that, and we have classes that have 0 convenience abilities that only get hoops they need to jump all the time. I do get class interdependence in combat group - cleric heals, warrior tanks, rogue dps etc. But outside of combat what does warrior have that cleric/druid/wiz can possible need?

This is an argument between improving classic or adding more content in the spirit of classic. Melee always depended on casters for binds. Adding more content does not change that, but the more bind zones we have the less likely it'll be to find a caster in the least popular ones. My suggestion is to keep the existing paradigm, while accounting for a world that gets larger and larger.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hence class interdependence where warrior/rogue/paly MUST look for a caster for an hour just to get a bind is ridiculous. Specialty if traveling to far off places like Erudin.

The second part of that is what I'm suggesting we address. If you know you're headed to Erudin you can pick up a bind item from a caster in the more populated EC/GFay/QeyHills (or whatever, depending on how these would be generated, though I would favor a summoned item mechanic). This keeps areas like Erudin, Paineel, Halas accessible/usable even when the population disperses more.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having portable bind potions is great, unless its casters who make them - because you just gave casters yet another cash generating machine that melees will have to pay for.

Personally I would put this as a mage ability. A summoned, no rent item fits their theme and they have less cash utility (wiz/dru - ports, clr - rez or important buffs they provide for others - sow/C/HP/stats).

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Casters already generate ton of profit by selling binds, sows, ports, even heals, while melees have none of such convince income. I strongly believe that no class should have a cash making ability, unless each class has it and its needed by everyone else. Otherwise its just broken.

Yes they do, though you are exagerating. I've played casters and melee here and I have yet to be charged for a bind, heal, cure or sow. Sure, when I was able to, I tipped, but the person doing it didn't know if I would or not and never asked for compensation. Yes, it's unequal, but it is the design of classic EQ.

If I was designing a game from scratch I would try to add out-of-combat interdependence in both directions, where casters need things from melee classes too. But that is a brainstorm for another game.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All buffs should be group bound - like in EQ2 - you join the group with a cleric - you get cleric buffs, you leave the group, you loose the buffs - so no cash from buff selling.

Games need more interdependence and ways for people to help each other, not less. The more you remove from the things two random strangers can do for each other, the more you remove the social aspect of the game. The more you seek to make everything even for everyone, the blander the roles/classes/races/whatever get.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EQ's grind 600 AAs just to be considered for a raid guild was sick.

Agreed on that. Much rather have a handful of harder to attain gains (ex. lvl 51-60) that mean something than having to grind endless points for a 1% here or there. Also if you add too much grind each expansion, you reach the need for catch up mechanics much sooner. There is a point when potential new players say "fuck it" when faced 100 levels and 5000 AA in a world where there's few low/midlevel groups. And then devs make the game easier.

Originally Posted by Taryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't care if the game is about soloing or grouping, to me EQ is about the freedom to play as I like without artificial restrictions. Like monks being able to feign and thereby split encounters. If I can cast a buff I should be able to cast it on anyone I please to cast it on.

This. The freedom to use / combine the tools the game gives you is one of the things that make it so fun despite the utterly simple AI. I'll take that over equality/balance any day.

[tanknspank]

Originally Posted by Taminy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everything that shrunk and eliminated the old world. Nexus spires would be ok if the timers were longer and druids/wizards were instantly able to port up there. Using spires as a short cut from WC to EW was stupid. Maybe have one spire only (as mentioned before) OR make it so you can only port down to the same spire you came up with.

Interesting idea. I'm not sure how doable it is to give unremovable, persist-through-death buffs to someone and if they could be coded to not count against the buff limit. But the spire effect from say Dreadlands could debuff you with "Teleportation Resonance: Dreadlands" for 3h. While you have that you can only only use spires to port down to the DL spire.

Originally Posted by Taminy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I hate trading in EC but Bazaar just wasn't classic no matter how you slice it. Changed the game entirely.

As big as EC is, /auc trading exists in other places too. People hawk their wares as they travel / play. GFay serves as a small trade hub for Faydwer. In classic even Qeynos/QeyHills acted as a mini trade hub for Qeynos/SFG/Halas.

Originally Posted by Taminy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What PoP did wrong

I agree with all you said. Also:

• Removed the danger of travel. Not just the books, but in the planes as well. All extremely quick to get to (super short run from your bind PoT/K) and extremely safe to get to (no risk running through PoT). Zone-ins were much safer areas than typical classic dungeons.
• Hub or not, I think MGB is a great idea for raids, but a shitty one for general use. I think it needs a limiting factor so it's used on raids, but not tossed around willy nilly in any hubs. I would put on it a costly reagent that drops in limited amounts on raids. Maybe something similar to ruby crowns (so as not to conflict with gems' use in JC gear). Maybe a new item that drops from the mobs right before a raid boss.
• Good/evil/race distinctions. This is an extension of the HUB issue, but it goes beyond that. In classic your race often changed where you XPed, what you killed, what quests were within your reach and so on. It made for a different play experience across various alts. PoP removed that. It didn't matter if you were a dark elf, a gnome or a barbarian, you hunted in the exact same zones and hunted the exact same things.
  
  Yes, this dilution started in high level classic (everyone to LGuk/SolB!), but Kunark and Velious made use of factions to shake it up a some (OT outpost faction loss, Dorf/Giant/Dragon choice, PoG)

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an argument between improving classic or adding more content in the spirit of classic.

The second part of that is what I'm suggesting we address. If you know you're headed to Erudin you can pick up a bind item from a caster in the more populated EC/GFay/QeyHills (or whatever, depending on how these would be generated, though I would favor a summoned item mechanic). This keeps areas like Erudin, Paineel, Halas accessible/usable even when the population disperses more.

You can get binds from group mates when you are going to places and most of the time anyone in Dial a Port will bind you at the closest town for like 10plat.

I don't like the idea of auto anything in eq.

[tanknspank]

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't agree with having spires auto port in any fashion

Spires have to auto-port in some fashion when dealing with something like Luclin where there is absolutely no way to reach the content through travel. This is not an issue in classic/Kunark/Velious because at the expense of time and risk you can still travel everywhere (except Hate/Sky) without the need of a port.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Spires have to auto-port in some fashion when dealing with something like Luclin where there is absolutely no way to reach the content through travel. This is not an issue in classic/Kunark/Velious because at the expense of time and risk you can still travel everywhere (except Hate/Sky) without the need of a port.

To hell with Luclin then.

[Taminy]

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interesting idea. I'm not sure how doable it is to give unremovable, persist-through-death buffs to someone and if they could be coded to not count against the buff limit. But the spire effect from say Dreadlands could debuff you with "Teleportation Resonance: Dreadlands" for 3h. While you have that you can only only use spires to port down to the DL spire.

Yep perfect.

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As big as EC is, /auc trading exists in other places too. People hawk their wares as they travel / play. GFay serves as a small trade hub for Faydwer. In classic even Qeynos/QeyHills acted as a mini trade hub for Qeynos/SFG/Halas.

Of course. EC was still not the same hub as PoK/PoT in terms of its close to all your experience areas. Other than SOLB or if you got a port.

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with all you said. Also:

Removed the danger of travel. Not just the books, but in the planes as well. All extremely quick to get to (super short run from your bind PoT/K) and extremely safe to get to (no risk running through PoT). Zone-ins were much safer areas than typical classic dungeons.

Come to think of it, PoP zones were essentially just South Karana or other crappy outdoor zones on steroids for the most part with a few exceptions they weren't really even dungeons. Off the top of my head, Plane of Water was the main exception to this rule. Maybe Solro and Plane of War to an extent as well, but even there was quite a bit of kite room. That's another reason why they sucked IMO.

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hub or not, I think MGB is a great idea for raids, but a shitty one for general use. I think it needs a limiting factor so it's used on raids, but not tossed around willy nilly in any hubs. I would put on it a costly reagent that drops in limited amounts on raids. Maybe something similar to ruby crowns (so as not to conflict with gems' use in JC gear). Maybe a new item that drops from the mobs right before a raid boss.

Agree 100%. Or just make the timer a lot shorter.

Originally Posted by tanknspank [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good/evil/race distinctions. This is an extension of the HUB issue, but it goes beyond that. In classic your race often changed where you XPed, what you killed, what quests were within your reach and so on. It made for a different play experience across various alts. PoP removed that. It didn't matter if you were a dark elf, a gnome or a barbarian, you hunted in the exact same zones and hunted the exact same things.

Yes, this dilution started in high level classic (everyone to LGuk/SolB!), but Kunark and Velious made use of factions to shake it up a some (OT outpost faction loss, Dorf/Giant/Dragon choice, PoG)

Even that dilution is not so bad at least for Lguk. Selling, binding, porting etc mattered there. Less so for SolB since it was so close to both good and evil cities and there was always the red wine quest....

But yes I loved the idea of siding with or against the dwarves, giants, and dragons in Velious.

And not only that, but faction was so irrelevant in PoK and PoT it was nonsensical. Ogre and Gnome guards in the same zone. Barbarian and Dark Elf merchants and quest givers that sell to everyone.

[Daldaen]

Luclin added:

• AAs allowing you to play your main character for meaningful gains.
• AAs and new spells balanced out classes like Ranger/Druid/Wizard in the raiding game, whereas before they were quite underpowered.
• Tradeskills made relevant. Stat Foods/Drink actually important, Xanthe Earring quest.
• Spell Focii made gearing a caster 100x more interesting and added depth to itemization
• Expansion of FT dropping / Revamp of FT code allowed you to stack FT, again making itemization and gearing far more interesting
• Allowed for slow-self travel, stopping the *Well I am stuck in Karanas and no one can get me so I will sit here for 2 hours waiting for a port*. Fantastic change. Wasn't made too easy or quick.
• Bazaar allowed players to sell stuff with minimal time invested on their end (beyond AFKing overnight or during work). Previously selling stuff was quite tedious and involved too much haggling/bickering with random people. Set price and it sells or doesn't sell, pretty simple. Fantastic addition.
• Beastlords add a decent amount of depth to the game. New buffs/pets/AAs to factor into raid and group balance.

PoP added;

• Expansion of tradeskills. ALL tradeskills made relevant, even pottery and fletching became extremely valuable to have maxed.
• Chain quests similar to Shawl/Ring that were awesome.
• The best raid progression. Something for the worst family guilds and the best bleeding edge guilds. Lore behind the raids was pretty cool
• Raid fights themselves became a bit more scripted and less corner-CH-Tank type fights. The Elemental Gods are probably the best example of this. Extreme endurance/offtank/coordination fights (Xegony/Rathe), burn/AOE/Control fights (Coirnav) and fights focused around pulling/positioning (Rathe/Fennin).

Both of these were glorious expansions. Yes, old stuff becomes less relevant, surprise surprise. Thats inevitable. Its very hard to add meaningful content without obsoleting old stuff. Come velious you will see just how much of Kunark goes from being utilized to vacant.