Luclin

[Anesthia]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin started to modernize raids.

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[Ryba]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin ended up being a really solid expansion - it just sucked at first. Anyhow, long post incoming.

I'd go as far as to say the modrod change was the greatest change to raiding in EQ's history. If you have never raided Velious or Luclin before the change - you basically have magicians face a wall and throw 100s of modrods to the floor so the CHeal rotating clerics never go OOM as your DPS autoattacks whatever bad dude that can't possibly kill your tank getting CHealed every 2 seconds. Post rod change, everything got huge HP nerfs and modrods received a cooldown.

Bazaar > EC. I guess there's some people that enjoy the people aspect of EC, but I liked being able to PvP (arena in bazaar) while buying/selling. I enjoyed being able to leave a second account online selling stuff, but I'm someone who would rather play outside of EC.

The whole cats on the moon thing is overblown since Shar Vhal is way the fuck in the middle of no where. I think I went there twice over my entire course of EQ live.

The spires shrinked the world, but using them was still far less desirable than getting a port. It took up to 30 minutes to go from one limited destination to another.

Like every expansion, itemization was fucked at first, but ended up being great. The AC/HP/Mana difference between Luclin and Velious was very small, but the difference was focus effects, more available ATK gear, and more FT gear. Basically, gear became a lot more attractive for non-tanks. Contrast this to Kunark where I choose to gear my 5th alt over my main because a Crude Stein at 20pp is 95% as effective as an Insignia Protector at 150k.

The concept of elemental and bane damage is interesting, but never fully realized. Elemental damage was generally regarded as 1/3rd as effective as weapon damage; however, the aggro per swing of elemental damage is the same as weapon damage. In other words, they could have made proc-less weapons desirable by tanks but not DPS.

Luclin started to modernize raids. You started to see encounters that weren't just a hitbox with an AOE. I posted about this before, but I think the reason Velious encounters are so well received compared to the more complex Luclin encounters has to do with the NPC models being the same and the bleaker environment. If you're not sold on that idea, go look at how well Gates of Discord was received from an aesthetic standpoint.

SSra Temple was one of the better raid zones EQ ever put out. Every encounter there was quality with the exception of Xerkizh the Creator who was basically a Velious-era fight carried over.

I never did Acrylia 1.0 outside of the Ring of Fire and Burrower. Ring of Fire was an amazing fight when it actually worked. I think only Ring of Valor ever ended up doing Inner Acrylia. There was the whole Grimling War raid that never got done much until EQmac years later.

Vex Thal was a huge disappointment outside of the loot. I'll give this point up to the Luclin haters. So. much. trash. The zone was pretty, the loot was awesome, and blinding Eoms were hilarious, but still a piece of shit zone.

Toward the end of Velious, you started to see a return to groupable gear not being terrible with the revamp of Chardok. This continued in Luclin and probably culminated with the revamp of Cazic Thule. Cazic Thule post-revamp was fucking awesome as an exp zone.

AAs give people progression outside of gear (raiding).

And for the first time in EQ's history, the developers tried to give a fuck about balance. Druids become ok again, rangers stop sucking, paladins get something to do on raids, mages stop being vending machines, necros become a real DPS class, wizards stop sucking in sustained fights, etc.

Luclin, fuck yeah.

I'm glad I read some of this thread or I would have wasted time typing out pretty much this exactly.

And t0lkien: I usually agree with your posts, but your opinion-- "Luclin *did* break the game, in so many ways, and it has been pointed out in many threads before this" --is still just an opinion, even if it is dressed up like an absolute statement. In fact, a lot of evidence points to Luclin being a profitable and well received expansion. Was everyone who played it foolishly deriving pleasure from a broken game?

Luclin had a bunch of shit in it, but so did EQ classic. Everyone is simply less critical of classic EQ because it was still establishing a baseline for how to think about MMORPGs. So we don't revile things like horrible melee itemization and class balance in classic because we thought that that's Just How It Is.

The whole point is moot because AAs were "gutted" from the code early on. But I would be much more enthusiastic about playing here if I knew the server would stop at PoP where raiding would open up once and for all. Quarm event is somewhat anticlimactic, but it does feel like it put SOME kind of a capstone on the game.

It is odd to me that some people don't see Luclin and PoP as adding anything worthwhile. Sony left the elf fantasy canon to do something original but flawed, and I think it is remarkable that they were able to release 4 playable expansions before coughing up the turd known as GoD. If we were taking sides, I would much rather hang out with the apologists than the purists. Nobody likes a hipster.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Ryba [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm glad I read some of this thread or I would have wasted time typing out pretty much this exactly.

And t0lkien: I usually agree with your posts, but your opinion-- "Luclin *did* break the game, in so many ways, and it has been pointed out in many threads before this" --is still just an opinion, even if it is dressed up like an absolute statement. In fact, a lot of evidence points to Luclin being a profitable and well received expansion. Was everyone who played it foolishly deriving pleasure from a broken game?

Luclin had a bunch of shit in it, but so did EQ classic. Everyone is simply less critical of classic EQ because it was still establishing a baseline for how to think about MMORPGs. So we don't revile things like horrible melee itemization and class balance in classic because we thought that that's Just How It Is.

The whole point is moot because AAs were "gutted" from the code early on. But I would be much more enthusiastic about playing here if I knew the server would stop at PoP where raiding would open up once and for all. Quarm event is somewhat anticlimactic, but it does feel like it put SOME kind of a capstone on the game.

It is odd to me that some people don't see Luclin and PoP as adding anything worthwhile. Sony left the elf fantasy canon to do something original but flawed, and I think it is remarkable that they were able to release 4 playable expansions before coughing up the turd known as GoD. If we were taking sides, I would much rather hang out with the apologists than the purists. Nobody likes a hipster.

Warning, incoming WOT, but all the points being aggressively thrown out in this discussion can't be answered quickly (though they've been answered before).

Thanks for the kudos, and for the record, I'm totally aware of the subjectivity/objectivity conundrum. However, I would still argue that Luclin did objectively break the game that existed up to Velious. I've said before that I also liked aspects of Luclin (SSRAE and other Luclin zones featured in my colour peaced linked in another thread) so it's not a matter of what I liked or didn't like. It's a matter of looking at it objectively and seeing the inevitable result of the things implemented on the future of the game. I and all my friends felt this death the first time we saw a 100+hp item linked in chat. We just couldn't then articulate why it diminished the game, but we intuitively knew it did. With the benefit of hindsight, now I can.

I and others have pointed this out before, and the points keep being challenged so I'm going to do it again, but beware it's a bit of a read:

1. The context. Cats on the Moon, clearly sci-fi inspired artwork (because, you know, it's on the moon which is in space), and so many other subtle breaks from the High Fantasy world created and adhered to up to Velious. Yes I know EQ was always an uneven mish-mash of D&D/clumsy RPG styling. But the general feel was there, and clear. Luclin was an ugly diversion from this made by people who obviously had no feel for or understanding of what had gone before. Context matters - in fact, after a lifetime playing and reading this stuff, and 15 years trying to make it, I actually think it matters more than any other single thing in game development. Context first, then gameplay which draws naturally from and is empowered by the context (in RPGs).
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2. Stat mudflation. Luclin fundamentally undermined every system in the game by blowing the stat increases available via itemization off the chart. This is the inevitable result of continuing a game beyond it's original design, but it means that all the systems (which comprise literally millions+ of interactions of all the numbers that make up the game) are trivialized and unbalanced. The game lost its very carefully guarded numerical heart, and as one who was there from day one I remember how long it took SOE to plug even the most obvious holes with constant patches for the first few months. Anyone who has tried to build an RPG system will understand why this out of proportion stat increase negatively affected game mechanics, the entire feel of the game, and the economy. It changes the game irrevocably, and is the thing that Luclin "broke" most. It pushed it and other MMOs into what I call the "big number system" world. For a look at that, see any Asian MMO. They are very different experiences as a result, and were designed to be so from the ground up, so everything (even the art) plays into it. For a game that was designed to be the opposite from its outset, it was a death blow to the original systems. The Bazaar had the identical direct effect upon the economy, and player interaction and reputation it was built around. If you make things easier, you reduce their value and the value of anything that depended on or fed off them. You can argue about that point as much as you like, it's like arguing against gravity. It's just how it works.
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3. The undermining of class distinction. This is a huge one, and Luclin only started it but it opened the door. Ensuing expansions up to and through PoP completed the devastation. When you supply free insta-ports to everyone when previously it was restricted as an earned (read gameplay) class ability to certain classes, when you duplicate existing class defining abilities in "new" classes (Beastmaster), when you introduce mounts to increase player speed when that speed increase ability was a core element in other classes (SoW, Bardsong - an absolute class defining ability; the Bard is built around and balanced off movement speed in every single area of its design), when you supply insta-click items that begin to give every class the ability to do these class-defining things - you blur, undermine, and ultimately remove the beautiful interactions between and value of classes you created the previous expansions. You trivialize the epic feel of the world you carefully created. You devalue player choices. It's literally designer bi-polarism to do something like that. You build up and ruthlessly guard your world only to tear it down. It makes no sense. AA's are included here. I liked them too in concept, but they as much as anything brutalized class separation and distinction which relies upon careful limits as much as it relies upon clearly defined abilities.

There are many other issues that extend naturally from these three. It's a tsunami of rippled effect that meant the end of the original (classic) experience. I know lots of people liked it, and didn't care for or about any of the things lost or foreshadowed as lost in Luclin. The point is they are liking a different type of game and gameplay, and there are literally hundreds of games now that supply that experience.

They also don't understand that when you gain that higher level or new ability or huge HP item, while it initially makes you feel more powerful that is only in context with the world it exists within. If that world is blown up in similar proportion to match the new power (as it must be to keep the game playable), you have gained nothing and lost elegance, balance, and value. You've also trivialized everything that went before it. This is so obvious to me that it's a little frustrating when so many people just don't or can't get it.

But in the end that's ok... I and others who do get it will just move to the places where those things exist (e.g. p99). What's truly bizarre is when those places attract others who go there for what it is, and then agitate to pull it down with the same changes that destroyed it originally. Why do you want every game to be the same? Don't you understand the things that you are desiring to bring here are the very things that killed classic in the first place? If you acknowledge the classic experience enough to play p99, you must understand why it's good, even intuitively. So to want to change it (again) is contradictory. And honestly, it's deeply bemusing for those of us who clearly understand why it is good, and what it is, and are pretty happy it exists in the form of p99 at all - imperfect though that may be.

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the end that's ok... I and others who do get it will just move to the places where those things exist (e.g. p99). What's truly bizarre is when those places attract others who go there for what it is, and then agitate to pull it down with the same changes that destroyed it originally. So Surely you can see how ironic, frustrating, and aggravating that is. Why do you want every game to be the same? Don't you understand the things that you are desiring to bring here are the very things that killed classic in the first place? If you acknowledge the classic experience enough to play p99, you must understand why it's good, even intuitively. So to want to change is contradictory. And honestly, it's deeply bemusing for those of us who clearly understand why it is good, and what it is, and are pretty happy it exists in the form of p99 at all - imperfect though that may be.

Not going to quote your entire massive post. But seriously man? Just because people say they enjoyed themselves in luclin and liked certain features of it doesn't mean they are trying to usurp and destroy project 1999. Just hearing people say they liked AAs or a certain zone in luclin gets you pretty fired up huh? All i see here are people that liked some stuff about Luclin and later expansions and they are discussing it...but you see an angry mob ready to hold a gun to Nilbogs head and make him add Luclin to the server? What is up with that....seriously?

[Ryba]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

text wall from page 12

I completely agree with everything you say right up until you get to words like "death blow" or "brutalized." Luclin screwed the pooch in many ways. For instance, new NPC races were a tableau of unmotivated tropes from all subgenres of fantasy. Why were there vampires, cats, little green men and mushroom people? Nobody can tell you, other than "anything goes on the moon." Just an example of your whole "zero context" point, which is really the best argument against Luclin and the only one I won't dispute.

As to stat inflation, there is no question developers gave in to the temptation to reward people with too-powerful items. This is a bad policy for obvious reasons, mainly because it will eventually destroy interest in old content just to briefly increase interest in new stuff. But you must admit that the numbers have to go up to keep people interested, and triple digits were inevitable. I think they probably went 10% too far with Luclin, which set the precedent for exponential jumps. BUT, like monetary inflation, the real problems are pushed into the future and Luclin items were fun and powerful and not yet game-breaking. There were some too-easily obtained droppable weapons (like Centi weapons) that destroyed the market for old world gear, and worse, enthusiasm for old world zones; but on the other hand, I didn't upgrade my t staff until our fourth emperor kill, and most Velious armor is only replaced in Umbral/Ssra/VT. Weapons and gear from ToV and ST were very hard to replace at all.

I think the class distinction argument is the easiest one to take apart. It is still a huge advantage to teleport from wherever your group happens to be rather than run to a spire or a book. It is still a huge advantage to have selo's instead of a mount. They gave new powers to everyone without ruining class-defining roles. SoW was still 5% faster than Swift Journey2, which was a pain in the ass to get, and shaman have had it since level 9 in classic. I don't see why a level cap shaman would be sad about not having to sow his guild as often, or how not having to do so destroys a beautiful interaction. More anecdotes: Critical hits were a cool thing to give other classes, but warriors stayed ahead of the pack. Class AAs were awesome rewards to work up to [Stonewall stands out in my mind, as well as EQ/AM for rangers and MGB for everyone], and actually deepened class distinctions. AAs gave the game a second life at level cap instead of everyone either twinking or quitting once they've done the raid content. I just don't see how you can look back on the imperfect class development of the previous 3 expansions and say that Luclin is where it all went wrong. Powers were shared and increased--and just like with stat inflation, perhaps to too great a degree--but everyone still understood that nobody was going to out-heal a cleric.

Somehow, the game had to mature and characters had to feel stronger. When it comes to the math behind character progression, it does seem like numbers across the board could have been kept more linear. Context and lore went out the window for Luclin and heralded a future where EQ would entirely stop trying to tell you a story you could care about (though they over-compensated with PoP's scripted progression). BUT, most raid content was new and interesting and your character felt more powerful than ever. At the same time, Velious raid targets and quests still posed a challenge and even certain Kunark and vanilla drops remained desirable. In total, Luclin was definitely a step backward, but hardly a game destroyer. There was a lot of content to play through and more zone variety than in the rest of the game combined, plus it bridged the gap to PoP, which failed in its own ways, but at least managed to close the book on EQ with some class.

For what its worth, I agree that "classic" eq ends with Velious, but I think "tolerable" EQ ends with PoP.

[thugcruncher]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin ended up being a really solid expansion - it just sucked at first. Anyhow, long post incoming.

I'd go as far as to say the modrod change was the greatest change to raiding in EQ's history. If you have never raided Velious or Luclin before the change - you basically have magicians face a wall and throw 100s of modrods to the floor so the CHeal rotating clerics never go OOM as your DPS autoattacks whatever bad dude that can't possibly kill your tank getting CHealed every 2 seconds. Post rod change, everything got huge HP nerfs and modrods received a cooldown.

Bazaar > EC. I guess there's some people that enjoy the people aspect of EC, but I liked being able to PvP (arena in bazaar) while buying/selling. I enjoyed being able to leave a second account online selling stuff, but I'm someone who would rather play outside of EC.

The whole cats on the moon thing is overblown since Shar Vhal is way the fuck in the middle of no where. I think I went there twice over my entire course of EQ live.

The spires shrinked the world, but using them was still far less desirable than getting a port. It took up to 30 minutes to go from one limited destination to another.

Like every expansion, itemization was fucked at first, but ended up being great. The AC/HP/Mana difference between Luclin and Velious was very small, but the difference was focus effects, more available ATK gear, and more FT gear. Basically, gear became a lot more attractive for non-tanks. Contrast this to Kunark where I choose to gear my 5th alt over my main because a Crude Stein at 20pp is 95% as effective as an Insignia Protector at 150k.

The concept of elemental and bane damage is interesting, but never fully realized. Elemental damage was generally regarded as 1/3rd as effective as weapon damage; however, the aggro per swing of elemental damage is the same as weapon damage. In other words, they could have made proc-less weapons desirable by tanks but not DPS.

Luclin started to modernize raids. You started to see encounters that weren't just a hitbox with an AOE. I posted about this before, but I think the reason Velious encounters are so well received compared to the more complex Luclin encounters has to do with the NPC models being the same and the bleaker environment. If you're not sold on that idea, go look at how well Gates of Discord was received from an aesthetic standpoint.

SSra Temple was one of the better raid zones EQ ever put out. Every encounter there was quality with the exception of Xerkizh the Creator who was basically a Velious-era fight carried over.

I never did Acrylia 1.0 outside of the Ring of Fire and Burrower. Ring of Fire was an amazing fight when it actually worked. I think only Ring of Valor ever ended up doing Inner Acrylia. There was the whole Grimling War raid that never got done much until EQmac years later.

Vex Thal was a huge disappointment outside of the loot. I'll give this point up to the Luclin haters. So. much. trash. The zone was pretty, the loot was awesome, and blinding Eoms were hilarious, but still a piece of shit zone.

Toward the end of Velious, you started to see a return to groupable gear not being terrible with the revamp of Chardok. This continued in Luclin and probably culminated with the revamp of Cazic Thule. Cazic Thule post-revamp was fucking awesome as an exp zone.

AAs give people progression outside of gear (raiding).

And for the first time in EQ's history, the developers tried to give a fuck about balance. Druids become ok again, rangers stop sucking, paladins get something to do on raids, mages stop being vending machines, necros become a real DPS class, wizards stop sucking in sustained fights, etc.

Luclin, fuck yeah.

you're beginning to sell me on luclin

[heartbrand]

dunno I wish they'd keep going on servers or @ least red and let u transfer off to a "perma classic" server or some shit to give us something to do. You can keep that perma classic museum server for antiquity as a testament to classic EQ and what not, I don't see what harm is done by enabling other stuff on the "non supported" non classic server or what not. /shrug

[pasi]

Forgot to mention Grieg's End - the most atmospheric zone in SoL-era EQ.

[poofph]

i liked luclin as well, I loved pop raid content, but pok really did change eq for the worse imo. put velious and luclin on this server and stop there [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[heartbrand]

Planes of Power was the best expansion I have played in any game ever just my opinion, I don't get all the crying about books, if you were level 60+ you were in the new content who cared that you could click to Grobb and shit that you never went to anyway?