Raid Rules Alternative

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah indoor mobs definitely have a different means to maintain agro, same as any mob that DTs would also require. The idea itself is very straightforward and simple and could very easily work. Perhaps some stipulations for things like CT need to be added so that you don't have one guild clear the zone for CT only to have another gank it. The golems rule might work here.

They don't require different rules so much as different tactics. If the mob DTs, you better send two pullers so that one can complete the pull after the DT. Also, you better be prepared to put more bodies on it within 30 sec or so. Nothing about the rule needs to change to account for that. Guilds just have to employ different methods.

As for CT and planar clears... I am not totally opposed to making certain concessions to those that would add complexity to the rules for CT or zones with trash to be cleared, but I don't think it is needed. In my mind, the most likely outcome is that among the guilds that will be competing for CT, his last time of death will be at least roughly known by all parties, and so, with a variance timer that is under control, those guilds will have the plane cleared or nearly so by the time CT is spawning. However, that won't always be the case, so we should consider what the likely player behavior is under my rule if there is a full pop in PoFear.

As the zone is nearly clear, guilds will (or should) reposition themselves near CTs walking path. They will have long pulls back to their raid force. They should have their trackers monitoring how many mobs remain. When they are comfortable that they can handle CT (all trash cleared or not) then they can go for the pull. If another group is also their and they make the decision to go for the pull first, then either they get the kill or they wipe. Worst case is that they go for it too early and the summoned mobs kill part or all of another guilds' raid. Well, to me, that falls under training someone, and is ban worthy. Factor that into your decisions about when to attempt a pull. Don't pull what you can't handle. That works just like any xp zone. You are free to pull 10 mobs next to someone else and kill them... as long as you can kill the mobs. If you do that and die and end up wiping someone else... you are training them.

Killing through trash doesn't earn a guild anything but the xp and loot from from those corpses. I don't like leapfrogging, most people don't like it. I think if guild/raid leaders will spend more time sending each other tells, less of it will happen. If Guild X chooses to continue trying to leapfrog and can do it without training and violating the server rules, then they are welcome to do it. In my mind, the best consequence of that behavior is that no other guild will respect the Guild X's presence in a zone and will sometimes band together to leapfrog Guild X. If Guilds Y and Z see Guild X starting to clear FGs, they might rationally decide to punish Guild X by rolling right through them with sufficient numbers to bum rush Naggy and the last 3 FGs at the same time. If they can do that without training or violating first aggro + 15 min, then good for them. In the end though, and equilibrium should settle out where guilds stop trying to leapfrog because of the dangers or violating the training rules or the first aggro + 15 min rule.

No matter what we do, the raiding game is going to feel very tight until Kunark. It will still be tight in Kunark, but the raid targets will more than double. That will relive the pressure a measurable amount. There are just not that many targets relative to the number of people that want to raid them. That's fine though, the scarcity is part of what make the loot and the experience of the kill a valuable thing.

We collectively came up with a set of rules that kinda worked for awhile. Then people's behavior settled into it's most logical conclusion, camping. Now we're trying to come up with a different set of rules to keep people's behavior to certain standards while they compete. The more rules you lay down, the more opportunity there is for loopholes and unforeseen consequences. Keep it simple. Punish the douches who can't follow the rules. Make the punishment severe enough that people will want to follow the rules even when it means they will lose a chance at loot. The internal monologue of Guild X's raid leader or puller should look like this:

I could KS Maestro even though Guild Y got first aggro and I want his loot, but then again, I don't want half my guild banned for a month... I guess I'll let Guild Y continue with their attempt and hope they wipe

not this:

Damn, those newbs from Guild Y may have gotten the first aggro, but I have more DPS here, I'll throw the kitchen sink at Maestro fast and he will come to our raid. I'll tell Guild Y's puller he is a dumbfuck douche and my guild had the aggro all the time... worst case is they'll petition, but the guides won't do anything.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Killing through trash doesn't earn a guild anything but the xp and loot from from those corpses

I was only referencing the fact that because it is beneficial to clear the zone, having someone do all the work for you as you leapfrog them is asinine. It's legal, but this will pretty much happen every time. It's not really competition as it is basically akin to camping. Nothing is to stop a guild from doing that indefinitely except the idea of an alliance of members to fight it. 100+ people in pofear? No reason not to if it gives you the upper hand.

What about if there was a first attempt deal to be made with CT? I don't see it necessary in any other zone where leapfrogging really only consists of like 20-30 mobs. The golem rule in effect right now gives you a timer to complete killing two of three golems. Once that is complete, you have first shot at CT. Instead of having a timer to kill the golems, it could be FFA. If, for example, CT is up at this time and multiple raids are racing for golems, then it will trigger DTs on both raids, meaning the raid who can recover quicker will do so and move to the last golem to reach a majority. If the majority of golems requirement is met then the race could be over and CT awarded to one raid force. If the golems are not up then it could be as you said. This way the encounter is either decided much more reasonably than a fight in a zone where trains will easily be caused, or right upon the engage of CT, depending on the state of the zone.

If faction wars still work I'd simply wipe the zone and sit in the zone on CT's path and get the first engage. Not fair to any other raiders who would consider going to fear just to take out the normal mobs.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you Dumesh, this is by far the best suggestion I've seen on these boards yet for raid rules and I love the first aggro 15 minutes to engage with high penalties for ksing, training and falsifying reports.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If two players, aggro at once, and 2 guilds are sitting there, alive, awake and ready to engage then /random for it and leave the gm's be.

Nothing in my rule prevents this. If two (or more) parties waiting for a spawn want to come up with another arrangement for a particular spawn, they are free to do so. If some member of that agreement breaks his or her word, then that will become known. That is it's own consequence.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Stickyfingers [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why not just make everything pop at the same time once a week? Then DA would get one and IB would too, the rest of the raid mobs would be open too, as DA and IB would be occupied with their respective raid mob, so a guild like Divinity could try some harder mobs. If Divinity is unable to, DA or IB (or anyone) could go in later and get the unkilled raid mobs. This means DA and IB could still get a raid mob a week, if not 2 or even 3.

Well, the only real negatives of patch days spawns with no variance are that people have an incentive to try bringing down the zone or the server looking for repops. I addressed that point earlier though.

The other negative is that Euro players get the first shot, then US players, then Aussies get nothing. That should be the only reason for a variance imo. Making the spawn times nearly unpredictable encourages more camping, not less... unless you make the variance so huge that the mob might not spawn for 15 days or something, and that is decidedly not classic, and also a horrible idea.

[matahari]

I am not a part of the raid scene. Disregard anything I say. My opinion is there are three choices.

1. The rules that the guilds have right now.
2. FFA first to engage with ks'ing leapfrogging still camping.
3. A calendar system of reserving days in certain zones/mobs. I found a link to the calendar system from back in the day from luclin server. This is also a lot like rotation that people had and didn't like.

http://web.archive.org/web/200101241...om.com/luclin/

I don't think there is any real answer to the raiding problems. Most raiding guilds would like all the raid mobs for their guild. DA and Ib will go to extremes to get the raid mobs under whatever rule system is in place. Soon other guilds will join them.

[Qaedain]

I like how you said there were three choices in a thread that spells out a fourth and viable alternative.

[matahari]

No that is not a fourth alternative.

That is FFA with a first to engage rule. That is the same ruleset verant had. Whoever aggros the mob gets it. If your guild didnt' get first aggro. Than you wait until the other guild wipes or kills the mob.

Not saying it's not a good choice. It is just 1 of the 3 rulesets.

The end result of the FFA rules is the same. DA and IB camp the raid mobs with bodies or trackers. Both guilds still fight when the mob spawns and they both have people in the zone all racing to engage first. That just opens up problems like ks'ing training leapfrogging. Both guilds think they got aggro first with 70+ people running into the dragon lair.

It may stop these guilds from sitting their characters in zones for days on end. But it is kinda nice. Frees up a lot of the xp camps in the 30-49 range ; )

The other choice is spawning all raid mobs at the exact same time with a variance of what time/day it happens. With either the 15 in zone ruleset or FFA ruleset "with play nice policies"

But how many times should the devs have to change this ? Plus the work they put in for variance already.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not saying it's not a good choice. It is just 1 of the 3 rulesets.

In fairness... this is what you said:

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. FFA first to engage with ks'ing leapfrogging still camping.

I have addressed the issues of training in my proposal. I have talked about how it would change the nature, type, and duration of camping. I have also admitted that some leapfrogging is a likely consequence.

It seems like you (intentionally or not) glossed over the ways in which my proposal addresses those things and simply declared that all the problems would still exist without debating the points.... or you were just referring to some other unmitigated FFA. In which case, there is a 4th alternative (and many others that other people might submit)

[matahari]

That's just it. Both guilds will believe they had aggro first. So an entire guild is going to get banned for Ks'ing even though they believe they aggro'd first. Or the other guild has someone un-guilded train the other guild.

I agree first to engage with no training ksing would be awesome. Both guilds are sitting with 5 giants in the way of the dragon. Both guilds know that if they pull the giants the other guild will take the dragon.

If adding rules to the first to engage works out. That would be great for the server. But you know there is going to be a ton more fighting than there is under this camp fest ruleset of who gets the mob.

I like rotation/ calendar system : ) but i'm a carebear. Every other system will have a ton of fighting.

Like a dev said. 80people will sit on the dragon spawn in 3 or 4 diff guilds. Ban 3 of the 4 guilds for a month for trying to ks the impossible to know first to engage? Than after that dragon dies repeat in the next zone.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's just it. Both guilds will believe they had aggro first. So an entire guild is going to get banned for Ks'ing even though they believe they aggro'd first. Or the other guild has someone un-guilded train the other guild.

That is very easily combated by taking regular screen shots of opposing guilds /who all commands

We did that in velious all of the time. (took screenshots of other guilds rosters to prove to gm's that the trainers were only temporarily removed).