Necro/Mage Duo

[mazukon]

Originally Posted by Lexical [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And can someone please explain to me the purpose of the cleric/enchanter combo? You shouldn't need CH if the shaman is slowing and the enchanter is CCing properly.

Resists don't descriminate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Lexical]

Originally Posted by mazukon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Resists don't descriminate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shaman and enchanter can stack MR debuffs so slow should land on most mobs and honestly just letting the charm pet die is a perfectly valid option since the shaman pet can tank for a bit while the enchanter brings back another.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by mazukon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Resists don't descriminate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Check the solo artist thread for Svenn and I showing what a 60 shm/60 enc can do. In comparison a 60 enc/60 clr are going to have a lot more trouble on say the protector because if charm breaks you are just utterly screwed.

[Lexical]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Check the solo artist thread for Svenn and I showing what a 60 shm/60 enc can do. In comparison a 60 enc/60 clr are going to have a lot more trouble on say the protector because if charm breaks you are just utterly screwed.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=80165

That is the thread Splorf mentioned.

[Netherzul]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the sustain of a Shaman in oh-shit situations as well.

Yes, both will have clarity but in the situation of things going south, a Shaman will outlast a Cleric in terms of throughput (Cannibalize ... ).

I will admit, as it stands right now, without Torpor, a Cleric is obviously a faster exp duo using the "CH pet" methodology. Utilizing the "let the pet die once he is low and re-charming one" has worked extremely well with an enchanter friend and I with my current sub-par heals.

Slightly faster killing or take the added benefit of a slightly better slow (also giving the Enchanter less to worry about), the best magical debuffer in the game ... and @ 60, Torpor. The Ench/Shaman duo changes entirely @ 60 with Torpor and this is what pushes this duo to be the best in the game next to a Monk/Shaman.

Prior to 60, Ench/Cleric is very strong but once both sit at 60, it's Ench/Shaman or Monk/Shaman all day.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by Lexical [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And can someone please explain to me the purpose of the cleric/enchanter combo? You shouldn't need CH if the shaman is slowing and the enchanter is CCing properly.

As Splorf said its all about CH. I love either duo but probably prefer the cleric for leveling (ie playing long periods of time just killing stuff as fast as possible). Would take either happily for trying to kill hard stuff, although I certainly agree the shaman is the most ideal choice at that point. Once you find that perfect pet in the sweet spot for your level and toss him weapons / haste that's basically it for the night, no more finding the best pet, no worry about running outta weapons, and its also a lot harder to die when you've got symbol and hero on all the time. Pocket rezzes are nice, too. Realistically if youre grinding out XP for 8 hours or whatever you're probably going to have a few perfect shitstorms of bad luck where yur gonna be happy to have that +1100 hp from cleric buffs and a pet whos health level is essentially irrelevant all night long, or worst case the immediate rez.

Another obvious reason why the cleric/ench combo is attractive, referring to your original question, is that just because a shaman may be a more ideal duo partner for a chanter, doesn't mean that there is one around to duo 100% of the time! Bottom line there are a lot of clerics with CH around, I seem to recall from the recent population tracking thread that high level clerics are more than twice as common vs shamans.

-Propo Fol

[Lexical]

Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As Splorf said its all about CH. I love either duo but probably prefer the cleric for leveling (ie playing long periods of time just killing stuff as fast as possible). Would take either happily for trying to kill hard stuff, although I certainly agree the shaman is the most ideal choice at that point. Once you find that perfect pet in the sweet spot for your level and toss him weapons / haste that's basically it for the night, no more finding the best pet, no worry about running outta weapons, and its also a lot harder to die when you've got symbol and hero on all the time. Pocket rezzes are nice, too. Realistically if youre grinding out XP for 8 hours or whatever you're probably going to have a few perfect shitstorms of bad luck where yur gonna be happy to have that +1100 hp from cleric buffs and a pet whos health level is essentially irrelevant all night long, or worst case the immediate rez.

Another obvious reason why the cleric/ench combo is attractive, referring to your original question, is that just because a shaman may be a more ideal duo partner for a chanter, doesn't mean that there is one around to duo 100% of the time! Bottom line there are a lot of clerics with CH around, I seem to recall from the recent population tracking thread that high level clerics are more than twice as common vs shamans.

-Propo Fol

What you described seems like a much slower albeit safer XP stream then what I would do. I have little interest in keeping a charmed pet and prefer just eating it when it is low health. Unless of course you are rooting both mobs and then breaking charm before one of them dies to avoid the heavy pet XP penalty, but in that case the cleric is mostly useless.

The mala spell line is invaluable to charming mobs since it not only drastically increases the level of the mobs you can charm, it also provides a very strong safety net. Also, if you are charm farming properly, the server would have to take a very big shit(pardon my language) on you for the enchanter/shaman duo to be in any real danger.

Also, shamans can tank better than clerics(assuming you aren't playing an iksar shaman) and can snap agro away from the enchanter if needed. And if the Shaman is a troll shaman, then you can do a janky fear kite on the side while charm fighting.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by Lexical [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you described seems like a much slower albeit safer XP stream then what I would do. I have little interest in keeping a charmed pet and prefer just eating it when it is low health. Unless of course you are rooting both mobs and then breaking charm before one of them dies to avoid the heavy pet XP penalty, but in that case the cleric is mostly useless.

The mala spell line is invaluable to charming mobs since it not only drastically increases the level of the mobs you can charm, it also provides a very strong safety net. Also, if you are charm farming properly, the server would have to take a very big shit(pardon my language) on you for the enchanter/shaman duo to be in any real danger.

Also, shamans can tank better than clerics(assuming you aren't playing an iksar shaman) and can snap agro away from the enchanter if needed. And if the Shaman is a troll shaman, then you can do a janky fear kite on the side while charm fighting.

I admittedly have done a lot less duoing with shamans than clerics but I have done my fair share of both. With that said in almost every case I was exping faster with the cleric -- although every shaman I've duoed with for exp was either an ogre or a troll which would slow things down. Changing pets, requiping them, re-hasting them, etc costs time. Admittedly we are not talking a big difference, but I would certainly put the two duos on par in terms of speed at very worse. And really, if it earns you a single rez you may not have otherwise gotten, we'll thats a big big return [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As to the comment about exp pet penalties -- if you're grouped with the cleric, there is no penalty. You can just let your pet do all the work of killing all night long and it costs you nothing. Don't take my word for it, just make a level one pet class, group with another level 1 and test it out, you'll get same experience regardless of if pet does 100% of damage or if you do all the damage (or any combination thereof). Besides, if there were a pet exp penalty for duos that would hurt ench/shaman duos almost as much.

Malo is amazing for charming no doubts about that. And shamans can tank like machines especially considering they can step in and slow stuff (sparing chanter the aggro / cycles of attention), but pulling aggro off the chanter isnt exactly a problem for clerics either. As to fear kiting -- clerics can get that clicky snare necklace assuming they're dark elves too. Although realistically it is of limited use.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by Lexical [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unless of course you are rooting both mobs and then breaking charm before one of them dies to avoid the heavy pet XP penalty, but in that case the cleric is mostly useless.

Hey Lexical just wanted to clarify on this after further thought -- if there were a pet exp penalty when grouped it would totally change how enchanter duos had to be played for maximal xp, it would literally invalidate almost entirely the most effective ways of duo leveling I know (with a shaman or cleric or anyone else for that matter) -- hasting and equipping pets would essentially be useless for exping as a duo, slowing would be a lot less useful (as preserving pets health would be counterproductive), etc. A cleric chanter duo would be severely curtailed under that situation.

A lot of your doubts about the abilities of a cleric/chanter make absolute sense under a pet exp penalty for groups. It might be time to empirically prove or disprove this one and put it to bed either way -- I suppose it is possible, if there were a group pet exp penalty, the exp of a cleric/chanter duo even halved could seem really fast compared to more traditional groups.

-Propo Fol

[Lexical]

Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A lot of your doubts about the abilities of a cleric/chanter make absolute sense under a pet exp penalty for groups. It might be time to empirically prove or disprove this one and put it to bed either way -- I suppose it is possible, if there were a group pet exp penalty, the exp of a cleric/chanter duo even halved could seem really fast compared to more traditional groups.

-Propo Fol

Hmm, I thought if a single pet dealt the majority of the damage it got a large chunk of the xp regardless of in a group or not. Honestly, I have never really followed up on it, but if you are right then the cleric/enchanter duo would be very potent albeit it still wouldn't touch the sham/ench combo in terms of versatility and how deep into a dungeon you can go.

Also, you have to factor in the added damage from the mobs your charm is taking when you eat your pet. You are basically doubling your damage output by eating the mobs and not CHing them(without considering haste). If I were trying to clear a zone ASAP, I would not bother with the CH or giving the pet weapons though haste would definitely be in the line up if the xp pet penalty doesn't affect group xp.

Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As to fear kiting -- clerics can get that clicky snare necklace assuming they're dark elves too. Although realistically it is of limited use.

The inny symbol is very important yes, but that doesn't mean you can fear kite effectively with a DE cleric and an enchanter. Shaman's dots are an integral mix into it as well as their pet.