The Good, The Bad & The Ugly: Velious

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Looks like you finally lost it Alarti MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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hmm>?

[Splorf22]

Well you edited out your empty post.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lets say there are 4 wizards at a raid... no one dies at this raid over the course of a moderately gears mana bar w/out regen those 4 wizards will do about 88k damage, assuming a giant or a dragon and not AoW(immune to giants bane). That is a rather large chunk out of a baddies health. Factor in the rest of the raids dps.

Lets say you have 4 monks(only) and 4 rogues at this same raid and for the sake of shits lets say they do 100dps a pop, there is another 96k dmg not even factoring in rangers/mages/pets/warriors/sks/bards(lol)/ druids/necros etc. Right now in the first 2 mins of a fight we have 184k HP down to 12 dps classes. Lets be super light and say the rest of the raid did 100k damage. 284k down--2 mins... any questions?

Of course this would only happen on a static fight if the boss was a "practice dummy". Wizards are less prone to rampage, prox aggro, and have a nifty concussion which decreases our threat for minimial time/mana

This has got to be the worst way ever of discussing a damage comparison between wizards and rogues/monks.


A moderately-geared, Velious wizard has ~5000 mana? They cast nothing but banes in fights when they can? They don't do anything (sitting, clicking epic, mana robing?) apart from standing still and casting banes? This never pulls aggro? Velious fights only last 2 minutes? Why are monks/rogues only doing 100 dps? Is that all they do, sustained, with Velious gear? How do FD and evade function on bosses in Velious?

You don't have to answer my questions if you don't want to, but I did mention that I don't know shit about Velious raids and that is why I wanted you to elaborate. You didn't, though. You just did part of a comparison in a bassackwards way, as far as I can tell.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This has got to be the worst way ever of discussing a damage comparison between wizards and rogues/monks.


A moderately-geared, Velious wizard has ~5000 mana? They cast nothing but banes in fights when they can? They don't do anything (sitting, clicking epic, mana robing?) apart from standing still and casting banes? This never pulls aggro? Velious fights only last 2 minutes? Why are monks/rogues only doing 100 dps? Is that all they do, sustained, with Velious gear? How do FD and evade function on bosses in Velious?

You don't have to answer my questions if you don't want to, but I did mention that I don't know shit about Velious raids and that is why I wanted you to elaborate. You didn't, though. You just did part of a comparison in a bassackwards way, as far as I can tell.

I have 3600 mana right now without the best kunark gear and 3900 effective mana with harvest. Also you rounded up by 200 mana i did those numbers based on 4800 effective mana. So a net gain of 900 mana on an int caster isnt too far fetched especially considering the itemization love we finally get in velious.

I explained it in a baseline setting aggro removed. You know... kind of how monk/rog dps was explained earlier in this thread?
I put monk/rogues at 100dps as a controlled variable, considering a bane spells effective dps is 181. The intent was not to compare DPS as no class can compare to a wizards 181 burst dps. The intent was to show how quickly damage can be done on 1 full manaburn. Obviously, the total damage output from a raid will be alot higher then I presented, 100khp total from everyone in the raid but 12 people? I am severely underselling the DPS presented by Necros/Mages/Warriors etc here.

According to ZAM (correct me if its incorrect) Yelinak has 350khp, Eashen has 81k, Aary has 410khp, Tormie has 500k, Feshlak has 280k hp.
These mobs, with a 12 man dps team doing max(presented) dps without aggro or anything included, would last roughly 3mins 50 seconds at the longest for Tormax. So if we were this low on dps a wizard would still do 91 sustained dps without ANY mana regen whatsoever, no clickie nukes, nothing.

But to project real dps without explaining all the variables is asinine. The evidence is in parses from the past. There is no way to effectively explain away a raid encounter with theorycraft. Aggro, Tanks, Flurries, AoE's, are too powerful of variables to explain away.

Monks were top DPS consistently, FD + great itemization made them untouchable. Wizards were consistently fighting for second place with rogues. Depending on the fight, some of the longer ones or the ones where bane doesnt work.. Tunark, AoW, Statue? we obviously fell behind. This was also when we had smaller raid team. Nowadays with huge raid teams that were required on this server with the variance policy I expect mobs to die much faster. Obviously, we will have more than 4 wizards, or 4 rogues, or 4 monks on a DPS team.

Also, yes a wizard should only be using Bane spells on bosses it hits; it is the most effective use of mana.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because Rogues and Monks are AWESOME dps in velious? Ill do a little work for you. Lets say there are 4 wizards at a raid... no one dies at this raid over the course of a moderately gears mana bar w/out regen those 4 wizards will do about 88k damage, assuming a giant or a dragon and not AoW(immune to giants bane). That is a rather large chunk out of a baddies health. Factor in the rest of the raids dps.

Lets say you have 4 monks(only) and 4 rogues at this same raid and for the sake of shits lets say they do 100dps a pop, there is another 96k dmg not even factoring in rangers/mages/pets/warriors/sks/bards(lol)/ druids/necros etc. Right now in the first 2 mins of a fight we have 184k HP down to 12 dps classes. Lets be super light and say the rest of the raid did 100k damage. 284k down--2 mins... any questions?

Of course this would only happen on a static fight if the boss was a "practice dummy". Wizards are less prone to rampage, prox aggro, and have a nifty concussion which decreases our threat for minimial time/mana

Again, having multiple wizards to play (/q wizard 1, log on wizard 2) is an enormous increase in damage. When wizard 2 logs on, he cares not for threat ceiling, he just burns his wad and /q's to wizard 3. No epic clicking, no med ticking, just spam casting and switching chars.

edit: If threat ceiling is of no consequence, one can also spam nukes til oom then /q to rogue or monk for more sustained, less burst. IP exempts need to be given to all because as it stands, many simply use these for fast char swaps rather than playing with friends.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, having multiple wizards to play (/q wizard 1, log on wizard 2) is an enormous increase in damage. When wizard 2 logs on, he cares not for threat ceiling, he just burns his wad and /q's to wizard 3. No epic clicking, no med ticking, just spam casting and switching chars.

edit: If threat ceiling is of no consequence, one can also spam nukes til oom then /q to rogue or monk for more sustained, less burst. IP exempts need to be given to all because as it stands, many simply use these for fast char swaps rather than playing with friends.

Obviously this would be awesome haha.

@Loraen yes we will def be in NToV quickly, I dont see us killing the big dragons immediately but Eashen and Flurry drakes will definitely be dying.

[Netherzul]

Thanks for all of the replies!

If anyone remembers anything outside of Wizards, please feel free to elaborate more here...lol

[Handull]

in velious monks out dps rogues? never played past kunark, but wouldn't have expected that if its the case

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

in velious monks out dps rogues? never played past kunark, but wouldn't have expected that if its the case

The thing about Velious IIRC is that the damage of weapons doesn't go up, the delay goes down. So rogue backstab stays the same while monks get like I think 15/18 or something ridiculous for fists. Dunno if that actually pushes them over the edge but Velious is the expansion where monks just get ridiculous.

[Splorf22]

All of these from Vulak. And this isn't live - P1999 is going to unleash 200+ people on NToV on the first day with trak bps, epics, vp gear, full sky gear, etc. Not to mention that everyone knows the strats already. So I'm guess NToV will be on farm status within a week.

Gharn's Rock of Smashing
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Hand to Hand Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 16 Dmg Bonus: 23
This item is placeable in yards and houses.
STR: +7 DEX: +7 STA: +25 AGI: +7 HP: +100
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +7 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +7
Required level of 55.
Effect: Strike of the Chosen (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 0.5 Size: TINY
Class: MNK BST
Race: HUM BAR TRL OGR IKS VAH DRK

Brother Xave's Headband
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: HEAD
AC: 45
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +10 AGI: +10 HP: +75
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Haste: +41%
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: MNK
Race: HUM IKS DRK

Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 15 Dmg Bonus: 23 AC: 15
Backstab DMG: 15
This item is placeable in yards and houses.
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 AGI: +10 HP: +100
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Required level of 55.
Effect: Feast of Blood (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: TINY
Class: ROG
Race: ALL

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: 1H Slashing Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 14 Dmg Bonus: 23
This item is placeable in yards and houses.
STR: +15 STA: +25 HP: +100
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Effect: Strike of the Chosen (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: TINY
Class: WAR
Race: ALL