FTE is Fing stupid

[toyodafenninro]

Originally Posted by Tarathiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...and fwiw a rotation does not have to be suggested, supported, or enforced by gms, they werent on Live and yet many servers had them.

Many servers did have them. Like mentioned before, on some of those servers a guild or group would need to post on a forum and be placed into a line, sometimes weeks or months behind others, to get a shot at a raid target. You might think this won't happen on p1999, but it's important to realize the system contributed to the wait time in that as soon as people realized they'd get a guaranteed shot at a mob, they would form many tiny guilds/friends groups instead of band together to form larger guilds. I don't think anyone wants to see p1999 go that direction.

Secondly, everyone on those Live Rotation servers will remember that it only takes 1 raid guild to ignore the rotation for the entire system to crash and burn. It is a 100% compliance or nothing system. Our GM's have stated they will not endorse or enforce rotations. TMO has no interest in a rotation, and I promise you if TMO didn't exist, there would be at least one guild/force/group on the server who would also prefer to fight for spawns rather than stand in the breadline.

As Jeremy said, we've given lots of shots to those who show some moxie.

[Savok]

Originally Posted by toyodafenninro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As Jeremy said, we've given lots of shots to those who show some moxie.

Does having a monk stand up and get FTE without a raid count as giving people shots? Guilds have proven that they can kill said mob (not just BDA but others too) with the right force in place.

I have no issue racing a guild for a mob and backing out when you know you have been beaten but to do crappy things like the above will just turn people away from raiding, period. You will just end up with all of the mobs to farm yourselves because nobody else will want to bother.

Like someone said above it just becomes a cockblock rather than playing for fun.

[toyodafenninro]

Originally Posted by Savok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does having a monk stand up and get FTE without a raid count as giving people shots? Guilds have proven that they can kill said mob (not just BDA but others too) with the right force in place.

I have no issue racing a guild for a mob and backing out when you know you have been beaten but to do crappy things like the above will just turn people away from raiding, period. You will just end up with all of the mobs to farm yourselves because nobody else will want to bother.

Like someone said above it just becomes a cockblock rather than playing for fun.

I'm not addressing any particular incident of FTE arguing that's happened between BDA and TMO. Those will continue to happen as long as FTE is the metric used. Your first question does not require an answer - it's obvious. Having said this - the ability to kill a mob with the right force in place doesn't entitle someone to a mob, either. As has been beaten to death, GM's understand FTE is a flawed metric but it is the closest thing to a data based decision that can be used at the current time. The staff isn't stupid.
<p>
As far as "doing crappy things," (?) - I chalk FTE arguments/other crappy stuff and a bit of lawyering to be par for the course when it comes to raid guild relations. It doesn't bother me. What Jeremy and I were referring to was clearly stated: up and coming guilds who want to test their mettle against targets for the first time. This was the case in his example of Full Circle in PoF, and I have seen numerous similar occasions. When it's obvious that, as you said, the guild can take the target with a reasonable expectation of success, the gloves are off. We will compete and may the best guild win.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Tarathiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and fwiw a rotation does not have to be suggested, supported, or enforced by gms, they werent on Live and yet many servers had them.

thats 100% correct. players are more than welcome to set up any kind of arrangements that they want. and as long as both(all) guilds respect it, it will work fine.


but as i said, i will not suggest, support, or enforce it from my end.

[kbnexus]

i suggest velious, i would also support it ! could you enforce it?

[Daliant17447]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's just a matter of convincing the staff that rotations are in the best interest of the server.

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

rotations are stupid.

i will not support, suggest, or enforce rotations.

good luck with that

[Llabak]

Awesome feedback! thanks Sirken!

[Knightt]

dont think anyone had this problem on live so you cant say that

[Acillatem]

Speaking strictly from the point of view of someone who has handled Rotation discussions in the past:

In order for a rotation to be warranted, 3 things need to happen:

* The rotation is fair for all parties involved.
* "Not having to poopsock" outweighs, or at least evens out the "loss of mobs" for the Guild(s) in primary control. In this case, Trak/VS, but also the ability to mobilize on OTHER mobs while camped out/socking.
* Does not eliminate "the thrill of the chase".

Look at past rotations that worked on P99 (Ragefire, VP, Trak). They met all 3 conditions and that is why they were successful. Enter BDA. Inconsistent competition outside of VS/Trak, and as far as competition on VS/Trak, unless I miscounted our DKP logs, you're shooting at roughly 20%.

*What you ask for is NOT fair to TMO at this point.

*A 1:4 win ratio on Trak/VS is not enough to put TMO in a position where a rotation is a better solution to camping at ledge or socking

*What you ask for eliminates too much of the chase (if limiting to Trak/VS then I would consider that acceptable - however I'm not in a position to make that decision)

*And tbh, BDA isn't to the point where TMO having a raid force camped out is detrimental to our performance on other mobs

Fix those 4 things, and then you at least put yourself in a position to suggest a rotation without so much backlash.

Velious is the big stink right now. On Live, if you were in a semi-casual guild - you knew that you had to wait your turn for content. You knew this going in and it wasn't a big deal. Kunark dropped and you got a little taste of Vanilla. Velious dropped and you got a taste of Kunark etc. It was never a huge issue becuz by the time a new expansion dropped, casuals were barely reaching max level etc of the previous expansion anyways so rarely was there this much "head butting" going on.

With this server maxing at Level 60, and Velious waaaaaaay behind schedule, and with us knowing ZEMs, and where to level, and PLs and twinkage etc....even casuals can be sitting at 60 (with an alt lol) and getting frustrated with the simple lack of something to do.

Compound that with the fact TMO still needs mobs like Draco and Maestro. We've had ONE BCG drop in the past TWO MONTHS - So it's not just for alts and shit like everyone "assumes".....these mobs still have items (in some cases BIS items) needed by MANY mains (not just a few people here and there).

[Xanthias]

Originally Posted by Acillatem [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Speaking strictly from the point of view of someone who has handled Rotation discussions in the past:

In order for a rotation to be warranted, 3 things need to happen:

* The rotation is fair for all parties involved.
* "Not having to poopsock" outweighs, or at least evens out the "loss of mobs" for the Guild(s) in primary control. In this case, Trak/VS, but also the ability to mobilize on OTHER mobs while camped out/socking.
* Does not eliminate "the thrill of the chase".

Look at past rotations that worked on P99 (Ragefire, VP, Trak). They met all 3 conditions and that is why they were successful. Enter BDA. Inconsistent competition outside of VS/Trak, and as far as competition on VS/Trak, unless I miscounted our DKP logs, you're shooting at roughly 20%.

*What you ask for is NOT fair to TMO at this point.

*A 1:4 win ratio on Trak/VS is not enough to put TMO in a position where a rotation is a better solution to camping at ledge or socking

*What you ask for eliminates too much of the chase (if limiting to Trak/VS then I would consider that acceptable - however I'm not in a position to make that decision)

*And tbh, BDA isn't to the point where TMO having a raid force camped out is detrimental to our performance on other mobs

Fix those 4 things, and then you at least put yourself in a position to suggest a rotation without so much backlash.

Velious is the big stink right now. On Live, if you were in a semi-casual guild - you knew that you had to wait your turn for content. You knew this going in and it wasn't a big deal. Kunark dropped and you got a little taste of Vanilla. Velious dropped and you got a taste of Kunark etc. It was never a huge issue becuz by the time a new expansion dropped, casuals were barely reaching max level etc of the previous expansion anyways so rarely was there this much "head butting" going on.

With this server maxing at Level 60, and Velious waaaaaaay behind schedule, and with us knowing ZEMs, and where to level, and PLs and twinkage etc....even casuals can be sitting at 60 (with an alt lol) and getting frustrated with the simple lack of something to do.

Compound that with the fact TMO still needs mobs like Draco and Maestro. We've had ONE BCG drop in the past TWO MONTHS - So it's not just for alts and shit like everyone "assumes".....these mobs still have items (in some cases BIS items) needed by MANY mains (not just a few people here and there).