Raid Petitions / GM CS

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What happenned here? One person posted a legitimate problem. Immediately, people who are on the other side of the most recent issue that highlighted the problem (stealin, etc) jumped in and tried to muddy the waters / confuse the actual problem.

ah yes, I immediately ( 20hrs later immediately ) jumped on this thread to muddy the waters and confuse the actual problem.

It's quite apparent to every stupid fuck on the forums.

Shiftin proves once again, he can not make a point/statement without trying to throw in a petty jab here or there.

[Metallikus]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This, and the resulting commentary, are an awesome (not in a good way) microcosm of the actual problem that led to this OP and what you know i'm ready to unload.

What happenned here? One person posted a legitimate problem. Immediately, people who are on the other side of the most recent issue that highlighted the problem (stealin, etc) jumped in and tried to muddy the waters / confuse the actual problem. IB folks responded taking the bait and going off the point. Then people who weren't even involved gave their fourty two cents. Things devolved rapidly, and the rules (of the forum in this case) were slowly then blatanly violated as things got worse. Then, 3 days later, someone with authority chimed in and tried to address the real issue, way too late.

It should be a very familiar pattern. It's not a slam on TMO, or IB, or VD, or BDA, or the dozen people who have never even raided here who think they have a valid opinion, it's just the very predictable cycle of events that happens on the server on an almost daily basis.

There are 3 people empowered to address issues, and 1 person who does, you. It's not fair to you and it's not fair to the people who play here in good faith under a very clear posted set of rules.

Amelinda, i've said this to you privately and now i'm saying it publicly. You cannot be the only person addressing these rules given the tools available to you and the expectation that we follow the rules. There aren't actually 3 people who deal with the issues and that hasn't been close to true for a long time.

We can:
a) scrap the rules, go wild west style
or
b) empower more people to actually handle problems, with a transparent appeals process and data available publicly to shut up these he said/she said that come about every week.

There's no in between. There can't be. We've tried that for 6 months and it's a complete and utter failure. You have a real life and real problems - and this *isn't your job*. Rogean doesn't respond to raid petitions and hasn't given a crap about them for a very long time - again, this is his hobby, so that's his prerogative. If that wasn't true, we've had back the loot from *last july* that he promised us and we've bumped the petitions regarding repeatedly.

This is not a status quo that works. Drastic things have to happen, whether that's scrapping the rules entirely or adding non-classic (mob shouting FTE, etc) mechanics.

edit: +1 for it being completely asinine that the variance is still 4 days on mobs with no patch days. It inevitably separates high value targets and absolutely encourages these FTE poopsock sessions.

Good points

[dozens12]

Wow this train got stopped right in its tracks. Maybe control your pet and it would cause less trouble for the queen amelinda ?

http://i.imgur.com/3t2zS.jpg

[falkun]

Bruman, I cannot agree with you that its all about pixels. I'm a bard, besides an instrument*, I don't need raid loot. I enjoy the chase, the kill, the game of it.

We all know the best game is a fair game. For instance, the NFL with salary caps is much better than MLB with lol-salary caps. The game as a whole is better due to being "more fair". So its sad to see "the other team" win via less-than-fair tactics. For all the times "the other team" has outmobilized "my team", pulled faster, pulled cleaner, whatever, I congratulate them. It provides me a reason to hone my own skills so that I may rise to the challenge. For all the times the "other team" has purposely trained "my team", KSed, or whatever, the game has become less fun. Likewise, for any times "my team" has purposely trained, KSed, or whatever, I feel the reputation of "my team" has been tarnished with respect to the game, disregarding the reputation of the "other team" the action was done to.

* Note: Even instrument upgrades are marginal, cheap ass instruments offer 80+% of the effectiveness of their more powerful brethren for much less effort. Also, if you want to make the dragon scales argument for epics, remember that Trak guts aren't dropping yet, so that point is moot.

[Bruman]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bruman, I cannot agree with you that its all about pixels. I'm a bard, besides an instrument*, I don't need raid loot. I enjoy the chase, the kill, the game of it.

Maybe for you, but that's still not the majority's case. I don't disagree that many people enjoy it for the race, but if that was the real case, then the GMs wouldn't be busy. People don't petition to the GMs over "they killed our mob", it's "they kill our mob and we want the loot".

At the end of the day, if it wasn't just about the loot, then the GM petitions would be almost nil. The mob would die, then the loot would rot.

It's about pixels.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Amelinda

The intentional griefing of each other in all aspects is just ridiculous. can't tell you how many times i get petitions from all sides that aren't petitioning individuals. "TMO just took my pawbuster" "IB Is here ksing me in Droga" "VD is trying to steal my AC Spawn" "BDA is stealing my Fungus king camp" "Divinity is here boxing"

Usually, it's more along the lines of "we were at king with two people and wiped/gated/AfkForLattes and now BDA is moving into the camp and we want it back"

Just saying. /derail

[Zapatos]

The response is much appreciated, Amelinda!

[Splorf22]

Thanks for answering Amelinda.

I know I had this chat with you earlier and that there are some problems with the idea, but I really think we need to implement something where the raid mob shouts to the zone when he gets aggro, and when he's cleared. It's not perfect. It doesn't control kiting or things like that (I guess TMO intended to port back to the zone in, have darkdeath FD/hide/stand up to single pull inny there?) but at least its a huge step in the right direction. The problem we have right now is that encounters are judged on a metric we as players cannot observe.

Also I did a thread earlier and the overwhelming support was for some random server reboots every few weeks. Its 100% classic, adds a few more items to the game, and plus server reboot days are the most fun ever. Legit bragging rights imo.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also I did a thread earlier and the overwhelming support was for some random server reboots every few weeks. Its 100% classic, adds a few more items to the game, and plus server reboot days are the most fun ever. Legit bragging rights imo.

I think there'd be more support for an actual patch every once in a while than a random "simulated" server reboot every few weeks. My point is that someone like Rogean would probably need to manually do it every time, and if he doesn't have time to patch the server, I doubt he has time to do that. Not saying it's necessarily a bad idea though! Whenever all mobs popped at once, rare as it happened, I thought it was way more fun and meritocratic and actually did rely on mobilization. Anyone calling it "mobilization" when a mob spawns at 2AM and your mains are already afk/camped near their room is just being silly.

I know I had this chat with you earlier and that there are some problems with the idea, but I really think we need to implement something where the raid mob shouts to the zone when he gets aggro, and when he's cleared. It's not perfect. It doesn't control kiting or things like that (I guess TMO intended to port back to the zone in, have darkdeath FD/hide/stand up to single pull inny there?) but at least its a huge step in the right direction. The problem we have right now is that encounters are judged on a metric we as players cannot observe.

Instead of FTE it should really be "first to damage to the point where it starts summoning". In cases where that's really unclear it should just be awarded to whoever's group gets the experience. I don't think there is anything meritocratic about engaging something 0.001 seconds before another guild, but there is merit involved in doing it 5 seconds before, or even a minute before. Note that I'm not supporting KSing - if guild A engages Inny, is having trouble, has him down to 20% but all their DPS is dead (somehow), and they could still plausibly win, then it's not okay for guild B to storm in with 6 rogues and steal the kill, even if their group would get the exp. However, if two guilds are poopsocking something and it's unclear who engaged first, then whoever gets the kill should be awarded it. I think this would cut down on a lot of the work GM's have to do.

I don't think the current rules are adequate and I don't think something as simple as FTE is the best solution. Like you said it requires the players to request GM assistance and in cases of loot that you might turn in for other items and server firsts, the players start to expect the GM's to be "on call" for them when that's simply unrealistic.

[Nlaar]

Originally Posted by Zapatos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The response is much appreciated, Amelinda!