Spells: Shaman DoTs Not Stacking Correctly

[Castle]

Another piece of convincing evidence. Earliest page is archived Jun 7th 2002. Only speaks about Vanilla through Velious. No luclin.

http://web.archive.org/web/200206071...ollshaman.html

What spells should I use in PvP?


Your spell load out depends on your opponent, but you should always have at least one escape spell memmed. Spirit of Cheetah (SoW if you’re below 24) and Gate are reccomended. I have both memmed when I’m traveling or paranoid.

If there are people out looking for you, it should be assumed they are prepared with generic magic/fire/cold resistances. When attacking prepared opponents, go with disease debuffs, disease spells and direct damage. If they are resisting the disease spell, keep slamming away at the disease debuff – it’s fast casting and will eventually stick on even the most resistant players. Below level 40, few players have good poison resist, so you may want to give poison a shot as well. At level 50, I like to stack two disease dots on them (scourge + plague).

The evidence is overwhelming.

[gloinz]

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another piece of convincing evidence. Earliest page is archived Jun 7th 2002. Only speaks about Vanilla through Velious. No luclin.

http://web.archive.org/web/200206071...ollshaman.html


The evidence is overwhelming.

not admissible in court
Jun 7th 2002.

[melkezidek]

Dot Stacking of the same type did not happen untill after SOV came out. Everything you are listing is likely from that time line.

However I do remember shamans having 1 spell that was considered unique and did stack giving them 1 extra dot.

[Darwoth]

changing my mind on this, one of the better shamans (yes, classic era) on RZ told me this........

Most of the shaman on RZ/SZ were trash. I use to drop plague and scourge on people all the time because ebolt was resisted all the time.

so if he says they stacked then they did, i just never ran into anyone doing it.

[Castle]

not admissible in court
Jun 7th 2002.

Actually bro.. If it was created on or after June 7th 2002, it would make my argument even stronger (though I don't know if this is possible.)

Imagine...
July 24, 2002 - Patch - Necro dots still won't stack inferior and superior from the same line
June 7, 2002 - BAM Shaman DoTs of the same resist-check be stackin'. Obviously... this would prove to further emphasize Shamans were doing it all along and nothing was changed on 2002 in regards to Shamans if it was changed for Necros. Once again he said "still not stack" so it meant the necros never stacked. Not that it matters because the server will only go through Velious... what the guide goes through - Vanilla through Velious, levels 1-60. Obviously, it was written during Velious, prior to the July 24, 2002 patch.

This is me victory dancing to dubstep, brah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO-jKksQkM

Honestly, the evidence is overwhelming, another nail in the coffin is nice, but I think the point has been belabored to the point of over-saturation. To deny all Shaman DoTs didn't stack is just bias, or something else talking.

[DarthPeon]

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually bro.. If it was created on or after June 7th 2002, it would make my argument even stronger (though I don't know if this is possible.)

Imagine...
July 24, 2002 - Patch - Necro dots still won't stack inferior and superior from the same line
June 7, 2002 - BAM Shaman DoTs of the same resist-check be stackin'. Obviously... this would prove to further emphasize Shamans were doing it all along and nothing was changed on 2002 in regards to Shamans if it was changed for Necros. Once again he said "still not stack" so it meant the necros never stacked. Not that it matters because the server will only go through Velious... what the guide goes through - Vanilla through Velious, levels 1-60. Obviously, it was written during Velious, prior to the July 24, 2002 patch.

This is me victory dancing to dubstep, brah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO-jKksQkM

Honestly, the evidence is overwhelming, another nail in the coffin is nice, but I think the point has been belabored to the point of over-saturation. To deny all Shaman DoTs didn't stack is just bias, or something else talking.

While you provide decent evidence of Blart suggesting shaman dot stacking in a post circa 2002 that does not negate the fact that these same exact spells did not stack when a necro cast them. The spell IDs are the same in the code, yet coming out of the shaman they somehow magically stack as opposed to coming out of the Necro? This matter can be resolved by current devs with access to spell files showing if this feature can be custom flipped on and off on the same Spell ID - without creating two separate Plague spells (for example) on a Necro and Shaman. Separate versions of the spells in question did not exist.

Further more, dot messages wearing off did not come until much later and that means people were unaware their higher level dots were over writing their lower level dots, they assumed as much because both spells landed. Yes there could very well be that many bad players that you quoted out of the ~500k that ended up playing.

Here is something for you to consider since the focus has shifted to a notable shaman documenting that they stacked. Even a good player highly versed in their class can be wrong:

Charisma remained misunderstood for years after classic release. During the era great enchanters, bards (Zamtil and company, Thott) - players that accomplished many more things on a pve server for optimal raid performance and min-maxing pve encounters in general (in relation to Blart and his lack of number crunching accomplishments) claimed that more charisma equated to longer charms. These players were in the top raiding guilds like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife. Years later data showed that it only affects the initial charm resist check and has no bearing on charm duration, and still today it is a misunderstood concept.

There are many more examples of things like this prevalent throughout eq history, but i digress.

So this is where we stand:

1) We have an official everquest dev post stating inferior dots do not stack with superior dots (the word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point).

2) We are in agreement that necro/druid dots of the same line do not stack.

3) And I hope we are in agreement that even notable players or experts throughout history can be at wrong, regardless of the subject.

If the same spell ID is used for two separate classes, I predict any change to the spell would immediately show up on both classes due to the way the code works. If so, this negates the fact that Necros could not stack but yet shaman somehow could. Or else separate spell IDs of the same exact would have been required - essentially creating two new spells of the same name.

I am for classic on this issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers

[Castle]

Originally Posted by DarthPeon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(1)While you provide decent evidence of Blart suggesting shaman dot stacking in a post circa 2002 that (2)does not negate the fact that these same exact spells did not stack when a necro cast them. The spell IDs are the same in the code, yet coming out of the shaman they somehow magically stack as opposed to coming out of the Necro? This matter can be resolved by current devs with access to spell files showing if this feature can be custom flipped on and off on the same Spell ID - without creating two separate Plague spells (for example) on a Necro and Shaman. Separate versions of the spells in question did not exist.

(1) The earliest copy of the post is from 2002, but clearly shows it is no later than mid 2001 being all the info exclusively 1-60/Vanilla-Velious content. We don't have original autographs of many documents, but the content of manuscripts are the most accurate way to predict an accurate date of the original autograph. Clearly this was Pre-Luclin.

(2)This is untrue. Necros using Shaman DoTs stacked. It wasn't based on class, it was based on the DoT. Necros could stack Venom of the Snake and Ebolt just like Shamans could. There was no magic modifier that Shamans had, simply their DoTs were coded to stack. Beastlords could stack em and so could Necros. If you disagree, provide proof.

Further more, dot messages wearing off did not come until much later and that means people were unaware their higher level dots were over writing their lower level dots, they assumed as much because both spells landed. Yes there could very well be that many bad players that you quoted out of the ~500k that ended up playing.

False. See quote.

http://web.archive.org/web/200203050...ll.asp?Id=1184

DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off, but along with these messages came a nerf. DOTS require that the subject be still in order to have the full effect.

Moving on...

Originally Posted by DarthPeon

1) We have an official everquest dev post stating inferior dots do not stack with superior dots (the word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point).

2) We are in agreement that necro/druid dots of the same line do not stack.

3) And I hope we are in agreement that even notable players or experts throughout history can be at wrong, regardless of the subject.

1) This was in relation to "lines" of DoTs. Shaman DoTs are not mentioned. Shamans have been logically proven to not have lines. One vague quote cannot disprove mounds of unbiased evidence.

2)Yes, the lines specific to their class did not stack (ie: multiple from same "line")

3) See above where wearing off messages are in. People would clearly see. You fight 100 mobs to get 1 level, 1000ish to get 10 from 39-50. If what you're saying is true, 1,000 times their first DoT wore off and they got a message right when their other one landed, and they didn't notice?? It's not only how many people say this is true, but how little evidence can be found against this. This troll shammy was legit and one guy from Casters Realm posted detailed HP amounts and calculated their HP based on his DoTs. Obviously they knew their stuff. CHA is an entirely different subject because you cannot see the effects of things, so obviously without a parser or a packet sniffer you simple cannot really tell what CHA is doing. "Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off." Anyone can see that and put 2 and 2 together. To compare CHA with this is apples and oranges, my friend.

If the same spell ID is used for two separate classes, I predict any change to the spell would immediately show up on both classes due to the way the code works. If so, this negates the fact that Necros could not stack but yet shaman somehow could. Or else separate spell IDs of the same exact would have been required - essentially creating two new spells of the same name.

It is spell specific, not class specific. Not to sound like a broken record because I said it earlier, but whether a SHM, BST, or NEC cast a spell from the Shamans pool of spells, it would stack. There wasn't some special class modifier, that's not how it worked.

I am for classic on this issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

Agree. Are you starting to see that this was classic?

[DarthPeon]

Originally Posted by valithteezee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Castle has put in a lot of work for this cause and pretty much derailed any conflicting information. I hope in the next major patch we can start to see some of these changes implemented.

Castle has derailed Jack and Shit, not to be mistaken for Jackshit which actually stacks.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you starting to see that this was classic?

No, but I am getting bored with your creative interpretations of Everquest developer statements, what does or does not constitute a "line", and your slew of inexperienced posts as evidence. At this point you are merely putting spin on my statements and backtracking with implied things such as "Necro dots also stacked toooooo, I really mean it." - After I showed you that they share the same spell ID and the Necro casts of those same spells never stacked.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off...

False. See above quote.

http://web.archive.org/web/200203050...ll.asp?Id=1184

I saw the quote, and below you will find the exact date this feature went in. You cited a retard and have been touting similar examples of evidence as the gospel to prove the dot stacked, congratulations. If Smedy was here, he would most certainly Praise Jesus.

Patch Date 4/17/2001 03:00 AM

- You will now see how much damage your character has taken when he is hit by a spell that causes instant damage (DOT damage is not reported).

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2001-1.html

DoT information in regards to when it wore off was simply not reported correctly until less than a month prior to PoP release.

Patch Date 9/16/2002

- The "Your XXX Spell Has Worn Off" messages for DoT spells will now go
to the right character.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2002-2.html

And still at this point there was zero information about how much damage a dot did. Good players relied on counting letters in NPC names and similar variations to calculate damage needed prior to information being available.

Finally - DoT reporting became fully functional as you know it today.

Patch Date 6/11/2003

- Reporting Damage Over Time - Damage over Time (DoT) will now be reported to the caster every time it does damage. These messages can be filtered in the Options window.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2003-1.html

The progression of patch notes above details the inexperience of your sources - thus undermining your challenge to the most important patch note outlining the only definitive dot stacking rule we have and specifically stating

Patch Date Sept 4th, 2002

An example was given to show that on this date in Luclin, same dots began to stack by multiple casters - with the addendum below.

"However Inferior dots still do not stack with superior dots."

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2002-2.html

The word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point. (Valithteezee) Read the exact wording from the notes and let it sink in.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Moving on...

1) This was in relation to "lines" of DoTs. Shaman DoTs are not mentioned. Shamans have been logically proven to not have lines. One vague quote cannot disprove mounds of unbiased evidence.

2)Yes, the lines specific to their class did not stack (ie: multiple from same "line")

3) See above where wearing off messages are in. People would clearly see. You fight 100 mobs to get 1 level, 1000ish to get 10 from 39-50. If what you're saying is true, 1,000 times their first DoT wore off and they got a message right when their other one landed, and they didn't notice?? It's not only how many people say this is true, but how little evidence can be found against this. This troll shammy was legit and one guy from Casters Realm posted detailed HP amounts and calculated their HP based on his DoTs. Obviously they knew their stuff. CHA is an entirely different subject because you cannot see the effects of things, so obviously without a parser or a packet sniffer you simple cannot really tell what CHA is doing. "Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off." Anyone can see that and put 2 and 2 together. To compare CHA with this is apples and oranges, my friend.

It is spell specific, not class specific. Not to sound like a broken record because I said it earlier, but whether a SHM, BST, or NEC cast a spell from the Shamans pool of spells, it would stack. There wasn't some special class modifier, that's not how it worked.

1) More creative interpretation at play and bullshit about what constitutes a line and what does not. You would still take issue with the original devs even if they included every dot spell in the spell files and spelled it out for you.

"This does not allow for inferior DoT spells to stack along with superior spells." -Original EQ dev

2) See number one. If you didn't have a creative interpretation for "lines" of spells and how they apply to the patch notes this would not be an issue.

3) Even by your generous mid 2001 standards, Blart's post is written about classic everquest pvp over 5 months after velious release. Blart attempted to recreate a classic guide about an era few understood how stuff exactly worked. He was certainly not receiving any feedback in response to his dot casts from the server and neither were his opponents. Given the nature of an item loot pvp server, you can deduct that he did not have the luxury to ask for damage parses and critical feedback while he stole some kid's shoes. The man is not infallible and his memory may have failed him.

Blart even states in his post:

"This is a draft. Any corrections would be greatly appreciated!"

Furthermore the quality of the Castersrealm posters that you rely on so heavily as evidence are highlighted in the glorious pvp tactics section of various classes. Go ahead, I urge you to read some of those posts and have a laugh.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

http://web.archive.org/web/200201131...Id=1141&Page=2

If you're a little slow you may be thinking at this point "so what, what does that prove besides he knew their HP?" Well, he only knew their HP because he stacked the DoTs. If the EBreath didn't stack with VoS the mobs would still have 150hp left whether he decided to cast it while VoS was active or to not cast it all. However, as he states, that was not the case. The mobs only had 150hp left if he didn't stack Ebreath with VoS. In classic and even now IIRC these mobs were always level 35, they always spawned with the same hp; it's the perfect constant for an experiment like this.

The only person slow here is you. You're reaching now to include selective testing. I just performed a simple addition test as well with the countless showeq spawn and spell databases available since early krunark - though don't get confused that has no bearing on stacking.

You could have easily casted the EBreath as well in your bullshit tests and replicated his instructions between the two VoS casts, you have merely spun his post out of context. At no point does he mention he stacked the spells. The guy you quoted is simply giving you an efficient cast formula so you don't waste mana on a higher strength dot or nuke - because he has tested it through trial and error and utilized an egg timer - like most people in the know during this period. I'm thinking timestamps were also available by velious.

The only definitive thing he states is that it took roughly 4 mins per Dwarf. Let me add something for you scrub - Scourge (2.1 mins) + VoS (42 seconds) + EBreath (42 Seconds) + VoS (42 seconds) = 4 mins 12 seconds. That equates to "roughly every 4 mins."

The guy states he is going for a no downtime mana conservation plan and that is why he is casting the Ebreath over a nuke - because he has experimented with the spawn times and understands with this cast formula he is just on top of all dwarf spawns. The issue of stack does not change the outcome here once again.

To summarize, the lack of information in conjunction with the patch dates I posted outlining all dot changes provides ample support upholding the dev post that the dots in question here did not stack.

Castle, consider this my last response to you and good luck with your petition. You're trolling for attention at this point.

[Castle]

Melkezidek, gonna have to put up some proof on that because Uthgaard said that

'but I remember this!'

Is not good enough. I can give plenty of anecdotes too *shrug*

[tradebot]

I leveled up my shaman on p99 stacking Affliction+Scourge+Poison DoT.