Claw of Lightning is disappointing (ranger)

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by TytosOfEight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I couldn’t find my monk log files (probably on a different partition), so I parsed more: I did 20 Geonids with 1237 AC and 20 Geonids with 1312 AC, a difference of 75 AC. I expected to see at least a small difference, but with 1237 AC I took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 23851 / time 1922) and with 1312 AC I also took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 25296 / time 2052). No difference.

On my ranger, I did 30 Geonids with 1055 AC and took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 31149 / time 2966); and did 30 Geonids with 1160 AC and also took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 33635 / time 3218). No difference again.

So you must be correct, that AC is related to a mobs atk and that ranger AC is working correctly.

Thanks for taking the time!

Can you tell us what's your worn AC before gear switches?

I guess the 1.9dps difference is from avoidance?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If AC softcaps do exist on P99, they can be based on what armor type your class wears. In the EQEMU code they do have a place where they specify armor softcaps for Cloth, Leather, Chain, and Plate.

Unsuprisingly, Plate has the highest softcap value, and the other armor types have lower softcaps. Since Rangers use Chain rather than Plate, they could be getting AC softcapped sooner than Warriors/Paladins/SKs.

Haynar said the low level (<51) AC softcap was lvl*6+25, meaning 325 @50. We saw with the ranger parses this is MUCH MUCH higher than actual mob cap so this doesn't really make sense to me unless you're doing vox/naggy? Or a TOV twink in his 50s actually raiding?

IIRC the mobs are tuned differently on here than EQemu, especially for velious so they tweaked AC differently so it makes more sense. Don't know how much we can rely on EQemu for AC over here.

They also stated that warriors gain 45% AC over softcap so that part seem to be class based but how many rangers raid with 400 worn for this to even matter?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There have been quite a few patches in the last 10 years, so I agree it is a little silly to simply assume all tests done back then are still valid today.

It would be cool if dodge/parry/riposte and AGI played a bigger part in reducing damage.

... I was wondering if anyone ever tested if agi raised avoidance in parses? People came up with how much AC agi gives but the AC total is a composite number of mitigation+avoidance IIRC. If you're above mob AC cap (ie: 200@45) MAYBE agi gives an avoidance boost? This is pure speculation.

[TytosOfEight]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for taking the time!

Can you tell us what's your worn AC before gear switches?

I guess the 1.9dps difference is from avoidance?



Haynar said the low level (<51) AC softcap was lvl*6+25, meaning 325 @50. We saw with the ranger parses this is MUCH MUCH higher than actual mob cap so this doesn't really make sense to me unless you're doing vox/naggy? Or a TOV twink in his 50s actually raiding?

IIRC the mobs are tuned differently on here than EQemu, especially for velious so they tweaked AC differently so it makes more sense. Don't know how much we can rely on EQemu for AC over here.

They also stated that warriors gain 45% AC over softcap so that part seem to be class based but how many rangers raid with 400 worn for this to even matter?



... I was wondering if anyone ever tested if agi raised avoidance in parses? People came up with how much AC agi gives but the AC total is a composite number of mitigation+avoidance IIRC. If you're above mob AC cap (ie: 200@45) MAYBE agi gives an avoidance boost? This is pure speculation.

I didn't explain the difference between ranger and monk damage because it wasn't really the point of the discussion. But, the reason my ranger took less damage overall (compared to my monk) was because he was using Earthcaller and Silver Whip of Rage. Otherwise, he would have taken way more damage than my monk.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by TytosOfEight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't explain the difference between ranger and monk damage because it wasn't really the point of the discussion. But, the reason my ranger took less damage overall (compared to my monk) was because he was using Earthcaller and Silver Whip of Rage. Otherwise, he would have taken way more damage than my monk.

I recall mentioning something similar to this in that AC thread. The best way for a ranger to win at tanking is to “cheat” like they do so well. Outside bump, two 50% slow options (one being like 500p) as well as the Silver Whip of Rage. Stack procs, not AC. And pray slow lands.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... I was wondering if anyone ever tested if agi raised avoidance in parses? People came up with how much AC agi gives but the AC total is a composite number of mitigation+avoidance IIRC. If you're above mob AC cap (ie: 200@45) MAYBE agi gives an avoidance boost? This is pure speculation.

The EQEMU shows that AGI does affect avoidance. It just isn't a large amount. I included this in my weapon DPS calculator.

According to my weapon DPS calculator, 255 AGI basically gives you the equivalent of 32 Defense skill points when it comes to the check that determines if you get hit or not.

Most of the time you won't have 1 AGI, so you won't feel the full 32 Defense skill points as you increase AGI. An Ogre who starts with 75 AGI will already have 9 out of those 32 Defense skill points naturally. So you'll only really see a gain of up to 23 Defense Skill points as you approach 255 AGI.

255 AGI is basically the equivalent of 64 Defense skill when it comes to reducing the damage you take. However, Defense skill only plays a small role in damage reduction. 64 Defense skill is like 12 worn AC.

I've come to see AGI as something like Parry2. It gives you a small chance to avoid an attack like Parry, but it's not a large amount. Obviously it can help you reduce damage, it just isn't a large enough boost to focus on getting 255 AGI. If you have a free buff slot, might as well ask for an AGI buff. But you won't be asking for AGI as a raid tank, you'll be at max buffs with more important buffs.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The EQEMU shows that AGI does affect avoidance. It just isn't a large amount. I included this in my weapon DPS calculator.

According to my weapon DPS calculator, 255 AGI basically gives you the equivalent of 32 Defense skill points when it comes to the check that determines if you get hit or not.

Most of the time you won't have 1 AGI, so you won't feel the full 32 Defense skill points as you increase AGI. An Ogre who starts with 75 AGI will already have 9 out of those 32 Defense skill points naturally. So you'll only really see a gain of up to 23 Defense Skill points as you approach 255 AGI.

255 AGI is basically the equivalent of 64 Defense skill when it comes to reducing the damage you take. However, Defense skill only plays a small role in damage reduction. 64 Defense skill is like 12 worn AC.

I've come to see AGI as something like Parry2. It gives you a small chance to avoid an attack like Parry, but it's not a large amount. Obviously it can help you reduce damage, it just isn't a large enough boost to focus on getting 255 AGI. If you have a free buff slot, might as well ask for an AGI buff. But you won't be asking for AGI as a raid tank, you'll be at max buffs with more important buffs.

Yeah fair point. Not entirely usebless but by the time you optimized ac/hp/str/sta and even dex/mana there's not much room left for agi unless you got insane gear. Not worth sacrificing anything over agi.

[kjs86z2]

confirmed rune whip bis for any scenario where you'd have to stop damage and seek shelter til you can be healed up

[Snaggles]

I promised to do more testing and may revisit this in a new thread comparing the Meljeldin to the BoF+Claw. It ended up being a pain proccing Avatar before every parse but at least I feel the test was as accurate as could be with roughly 60,000 hps (10x shady kills) with each setup.

PS: sorry for the formatting. Also, I didn’t use the BoF since I would have to edit out the 100dd as it would skew the testing. This NPC has Dain-like mitigation.

Offhand Test: Swiftwind vs Claw
Shady Swashbuckler, level 45 npc, 6k hps, max hit 114
Snared to start fight, dark cloak of sky + Yeli gloves (91% self haste)
When fleeing would face npc so not to bypass npc's defensive skills

Silver Whip of Rage + Swiftwind + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1489 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 130 46 241 65 24
Shady 2 139 43 263 68 22
Shady 3 128 46 248 68 24
Shady 4 127 47 250 68 24
Shady 5 137 43 269 68 22
Shady 6 118 51 253 68 23
Shady 7 112 53 234 68 25
Shady 8 137 44 274 68 22
Shady 9 122 49 259 65 23
Shady 10 129 46 251 67 23
Shady Set 1279 47 2542 68 23

Silver Whip of Rage + Claw of Lightning + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1448 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 114 52 245 65 24
Shady 2 134 45 272 65 22
Shady 3 111 54 249 65 24
Shady 4 127 47 272 60 22
Shady 5 122 49 258 65 23
Shady 6 138 43 267 62 22
Shady 7 118 50 254 65 23
Shady 8 133 45 268 65 22
Shady 9 126 47 253 63 23
Shady 9 129 46 268 65 22
Shady Set 1252 48 2606 65 23


Summary: basically 47 dps vs 48 dps, win goes to the claw.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I promised to do more testing and may revisit this in a new thread comparing the Meljeldin to the BoF+Claw. It ended up being a pain proccing Avatar before every parse but at least I feel the test was as accurate as could be with roughly 60,000 hps (10x shady kills) with each setup.

PS: sorry for the formatting. Also, I didn’t use the BoF since I would have to edit out the 100dd as it would skew the testing. This NPC has Dain-like mitigation.

Offhand Test: Swiftwind vs Claw
Shady Swashbuckler, level 45 npc, 6k hps, max hit 114
Snared to start fight, dark cloak of sky + Yeli gloves (91% self haste)
When fleeing would face npc so not to bypass npc's defensive skills

Silver Whip of Rage + Swiftwind + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1489 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 130 46 241 65 24
Shady 2 139 43 263 68 22
Shady 3 128 46 248 68 24
Shady 4 127 47 250 68 24
Shady 5 137 43 269 68 22
Shady 6 118 51 253 68 23
Shady 7 112 53 234 68 25
Shady 8 137 44 274 68 22
Shady 9 122 49 259 65 23
Shady 10 129 46 251 67 23
Shady Set 1279 47 2542 68 23

Silver Whip of Rage + Claw of Lightning + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1448 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 114 52 245 65 24
Shady 2 134 45 272 65 22
Shady 3 111 54 249 65 24
Shady 4 127 47 272 60 22
Shady 5 122 49 258 65 23
Shady 6 138 43 267 62 22
Shady 7 118 50 254 65 23
Shady 8 133 45 268 65 22
Shady 9 126 47 253 63 23
Shady 9 129 46 268 65 22
Shady Set 1252 48 2606 65 23


Summary: basically 47 dps vs 48 dps, win goes to the claw.

Thank you very much for spending the time and posting the results! I appreciate the detail and buff list. It's really cool that Rangers can get +195 ATK with this setup, and can go over 200 with AoB.

This matches with my calculator as well. Claw of Lightning in offhand is ~1 DPS higher.

It seems like Shady has around 700 AC since he is getting you down to 48 DPS. This is assuming 200 Defense skill, as he is level 45.

[Snaggles]

Thanks DSM!

It’s a weird mob. Less glamorous than a real raid target but I can solo it and it’s easy to find up. I would encourage people to try it as well with their own setups to see if they can draw trends as well. Maybe while just sitting in the tunnel looking for their next impulse buy? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

I regret spending money/time on ranger 1h. Just go silver swiftblade, woodmans staff, then cek 2h. Pick up a swarmcaller as well. They can't tank for shit so less riposte is ideal.