DPS: Monk vs. Warrior vs. Rogue vs. Ranger

[Alarria]

Man, as someone who has always played casters, I thought wow! A 14 page thread comparing melee dps. Yeah....too good to be true. If it makes me a troll also, then whatever. But Deathsilkymist, sometimes it's better to just stop. I get having the last word, but you (and yes the people who like making you angry to keep you going) really do shit up really good threads. Please don't quote or respond to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Man, as someone who has always played casters, I thought wow! A 14 page thread comparing melee dps. Yeah....too good to be true. If it makes me a troll also, then whatever. But Deathsilkymist, sometimes it's better to just stop. I get having the last word, but you (and yes the people who like making you angry to keep you going) really do shit up really good threads. Please don't quote or respond to me.

I do not care about the last word. Allowing trolls to post lies and false information will not improve the situation. You'll just get threads full of false information.

I have proof showing Troxx, Toxigen, and Croco derailed the thread. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=131

If you care about fixing the problem, talk to them. They will continue to bloat threads, even if I disappeared, because they are the problem. I never start this. they'll just find a new target.

I understand you don't want to be targeted by them, so you ask me to stop instead. Sadly that will not stop the problem, you are asking the wrong person. Cause and effect. When trolls don't attack posters, posters don't defend themselves.

[Alarria]

I didn't ask you to do anything, other than not respond or quote me, both of which you did regardless. I don't care who "targets me" on a game forum I've posted on 100 times in 13 years. Why would anyone care what an anonymous person says about you on a emulated game forum? I'm saying that sometimes, it's fun to read about a game without having to see huge quoted posts full of stuff irrelevant to the original topic. You, and they, are the cause. However, if you did have the grace to stop, the "trolls" would have no ammo.

Regardless, please don't reply. I'm just stating something.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't ask you to do anything, other than not respond or quote me, both of which you did regardless. I don't care who "targets me" on a game forum I've posted on 100 times in 13 years. Why would anyone care what an anonymous person says about you on a emulated game forum? I'm saying that sometimes, it's fun to read about a game without having to see huge quoted posts full of stuff irrelevant to the original topic. You, and they, are the cause. However, if you did have the grace to stop, the "trolls" would have no ammo.

Regardless, please don't reply. I'm just stating something.

I honestly don't care about the insults. Posters like Troxx have provided factually false information after being proven wrong, and have asserted it to be true to troll other posters. Toxigen and other trolls reinforce this information, giving the illusion of consensus. That's a real problem if you enjoy having discussions about game mechanics in an honest and open way.

When you have a bunch of trolls bullying people into submission, discussion shuts down. Nobody bothers posting, as they will just be attacked by the mob.

If you really care about seeing interesting game mechanic discussions happen organically in an honest and open way, you cannot allow this kind of behavior. All I can do is point out this behavior, and hope that other people step up to keep these forums alive.

I appreciate Snaggles doing just that. Thank you! Jimjam and Kirdan were also great in this thread.

[Alarria]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go. Let this rest. Here, I'll help move on:

For DPS, what is a greater contributing factor, given similar gear levels? Better worn haste, or better damage/delay on weapons? I have never played anything but casters, and don't understand the math really. Like 36% haste vs 41%, or 5 more base damage or 5 less delay. I do want to learn. I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go.

I appreciate your opinion. I am giving you mine. Letting the trolls run rampant is the problem, whether you agree with that or not.

If you want to solve the problem, talk to the trolls. If you don't, then you will unfortunately see this issue continue. They will not stop if I leave, they will simply find a new target. That is how they operate.

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For DPS, what is a greater contributing factor, given similar gear levels? Better worn haste, or better damage/delay on weapons? I have never played anything but casters, and don't understand the math really. Like 36% haste vs 41%, or 5 more base damage or 5 less delay. I do want to learn. I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

An easy starting point is weapon ratios.

Lets look at a cracked staff. 5 damage, 32 delay.

You divide 5/32 to get the ratio of 0.156

Haste reduces the delay of the weapon. An FBSS has 21% worn haste. If you divide 32 by 1.21, you get a new delay of 26.44.

Your cracked staff's ratio is now 5/26.44 = 0.189.

You can do these calculatuons with whatever weapon. Bigger ratio is generally better.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Alarria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

When thinking about melee damage you need to incorporate the additional bonus damage added when at high levels. I also mostly play casters, so I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Me...bat_and_Damage is helpful.

Here's how I think of it. First, adjust the delay for haste: new delay = old delay / (1 + haste percentage). Second, weapons can generally hit for twice the stated value, so double the damage. Then, add a level-based damage modifier for main hand; wiki suggests it would be 8 or 9 for your level. That's the actual ratio you should be optimizing for.

So, if you have 36% haste and are comparing a 29/30 and a 38/40, the haste makes them 29/22 and 38/28. Doubling the damage and adding 9 gets you 38/22 and 47/28. So the final ratios are 1.72 and 1.68.

This calculation is just for example's sake, as I don't know the actual damage bonus values, and I believe they can be different for 1h and 2h weapons.

I think the other two important considerations is that the damage bonus only applies to main-hand weapon, and that off-hand weapon procs are half the rate of main-hand procs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When thinking about melee damage you need to incorporate the additional bonus damage added when at high levels. I also mostly play casters, so I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Me...bat_and_Damage is helpful.

Here's how I think of it. First, adjust the delay for haste: new delay = old delay / (1 + haste percentage). Second, weapons can generally hit for twice the stated value, so double the damage. Then, add a level-based damage modifier for main hand; wiki suggests it would be 8 or 9 for your level. That's the actual ratio you should be optimizing for.

So, if you have 36% haste and are comparing a 29/30 and a 38/40, the haste makes them 29/22 and 38/28. Doubling the damage and adding 9 gets you 38/22 and 47/28. So the final ratios are 1.72 and 1.68.

This calculation is just for example's sake, as I don't know the actual damage bonus values, and I believe they can be different for 1h and 2h weapons.

I think the other two important considerations is that the damage bonus only applies to main-hand weapon, and that off-hand weapon procs are half the rate of main-hand procs.

You don't add the main hand damage bonus to the weapon's damage when calculating ratio. That has been said a lot on these forums, so it's understandable why you thought that was the case.

You simply add the main hand damage bonus to the final damage number. So if a weapon hits for a maximum of 100 on your character, you would deal 109 damage total after the main hand bonus is applied.

2 handed weapons get an additonal damage bonus if their delay is large enough. I want to say this damage table is accurate for P99: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

So in the case of TStaff vs. IFS, TStaff gets +29 damage added to the final damage value, and IFS gets +34 damage added to the final damage value. These values have the main hand damage bonus already added in, and are for a level 60 character.

EDIT: I did do max damage calculations before. This is using a 46/44 weapon on a level 60:

Minus factor can be found in the link starting on line 5285:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/attack.cpp

Damage Table for a level 60: { 285 Max Extra, 23 Chance, 65 Minusfactor }

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 350.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 285
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 242.5
2c. ((46 Weapon Damage * 2) * 242.5) / 100 = 223.1
2d. Add 2h damage table bonus. Total is 37 according to https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1 (this includes the formula 3 + ((60 level - 28) / 3) + ((44 delay - 40) / 3)). 37 + 223.1 = 260.1

https://youtu.be/Py96jk2NflU video link for test.

[Snaggles]

You calculate damage bonus when doing ratio. That’s how you compare weapons of varying ratios when accounting for damage bonus application/second. The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

11x2+11 (damage bonus)/18 Delay = 1.8333
30x2+11 (damage bonus) /40 (delay) = 1.775

Calculation above is the same for OH but no damage bonus and you should account record swing ratio. For a 60 ranger the offhand swings exactly .75 times compared to the MH parsed over a 20 minute fight.

2h’s damage bonus is not flat calculated as it changes depending on delay; there are still more and less efficient 2h’s.

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

While it does really matter since there are a finite amount of options, the tstaff is an example where a sub 1/1 ratio weapon can exceed a post 1/1 ratio weapon. Not by much, but by some. Especially if factoring the DD proc.

29/30 (tstaff)
29 (weapon dmg)x2 + 29 (dmg bonus) / 30 (delay) = 2.9 ratio

45/44 (priceless brawl stick)
44 (weapon dmg)x2 + 37 (dmg bonus) / 44 (delay) = 2.886

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.