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#1
01-27-2024, 06:37 PM
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-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them) -I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,...of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield. -We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446 -I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield. -I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all. I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted. Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers. Ogre fight: Time: 132 seconds Net health loss: 594 Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent. At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594. You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight. Quote:
How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point? Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds. Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found) https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing. -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made? Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon. The result? Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling" When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP". At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of: Mana = neutral HP = almost completely out Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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#2
01-27-2024, 07:38 PM
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#5
01-27-2024, 05:37 PM
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It's better to be level 60 with Torpor and no Epic than being level 60 with Epic and no Torpor.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-27-2024 at 05:40 PM..
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#6
01-27-2024, 06:53 PM
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The JBB Shaman only needs 8 ticks to recover the remainder with their regen while standing. In a place like PoM rat Maze you can often times run around for 30 seconds or more before finding the next rat and bringing it back to your pet. The respawn time is 72 minutes in PoM, and spawns are somewhat far apart often times. You also forget that a JBB Shaman can cast a 30 mana root and have their pet tank for a few ticks. Root will break from JBB, but you only need a small respite. You yourself advocated for the 30 mana root! Two ticks from regen and 12 seconds of not taking damage would be 180 hp recovered when needed. That single root from time to time will not affect your overall progess, as you are also recovering 10 mana a minute while running around pulling. Mic drop indeed. You have tried to do math this thread, which is an improvement. You even stopped trolling from time to time. Thanks! But you still lost. Please admit it for once. You are the one who never admits to being wrong.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-27-2024 at 07:22 PM..
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#7
01-27-2024, 07:44 PM
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Just to put the final nail on the coffin, I'll adjust this a bit to ensure Troxx doesn't try and weasel his way out. When I was in PoM Rat maze I never needed to actually use a root on occasion to heal, as the pull times allowed me to fully recover between fights. Criteria ========= 1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB. 2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects. 3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze. 4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic. 5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets. Ogre with JBB ============= - JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS - 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks - 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS) - 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks - 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects - 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour - 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake. Total HP Spent: 474 Total Mana Spent: 189 Total Fight Time: 132 seconds Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP. 188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling. Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more. Iksar without JBB using root/rotting ============= - 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight - 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks - 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks - 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts - 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague - 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects - 30 Mana spent on 1x Root - 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above - 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour - 75 Mana spent on Chloroblasting the pet every other fight - 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick) Total HP Gained: 1456 Total Mana Spent: 738 Total Fight Time: 188 seconds Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 738 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained. 188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat. The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency. This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc. Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-27-2024 at 08:04 PM..
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#8
01-27-2024, 08:47 PM
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Let's edit that post another 2-3 times til we get it right. Troll! | |||
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#9
01-27-2024, 08:53 PM
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1. When it comes to mob regen, JBB spamming is higher DPS on average than the DoTing strategy. Chances are the fight would last longer on the DoTing Shaman's side if mob regen did end up extending the fight for a few seconds. The fight is longer (more regen occurs), and all of the DoT's would have worn off in Troxx's example by the end. If they needed to cast another damage spell to speed up the fight, then they would also have some extra recovery time at the end. 2. I agree root breaks are a problem. I've said so many times, even in the post you quoted lol. That is why the JBB Shaman only assumed that the root would last 8-16 seconds at best. The only side ignoring root breaks is Troxx, because he wants to make root rotting look better. His assumption is that root never breaks and damage is never taken from a root break, which is obviously incorrect. This would slow down the DoTing Shaman, while not affecting the JBB Shaman. The JBB Shaman does not need to root every fight. I just threw it in every fight to show Troxx that you can significantly reduce the remaining damage per fight if needed. Personally I never needed to use root and pet tanking to recover after a fight in PoM rat maze. I only used root for parking adds away from me. 3. Spell resists are low on trash mobs. You don't even need to malo them. An occasional resist on JBB is really not a big deal. You just need to spend 8 more seconds casting it. Conversely, getting a resist on a DoT means you are down a full 300 mana, and now need to spend extra recovery time in-between fights. They would need to spend 6 seconds casting the DoT again, plus recovering the 300 mana, which takes longer. This again slows down the DoT Shaman. As of this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=465 - Troxx is still wrong, even after all the back and forth. JBB is better than root rotting from 45-60 on all shaman races that can use it. Ogres will still level faster from 45-60 with it than an Iksar would leveling from 45-60 with root/rotting and without Epic. Hopefully he will finally admit he is wrong about something.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-27-2024 at 09:19 PM..
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