Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If root wears off, so what? Other scenario is face tanking anyway.

Indeed, but that means you are taking damage instead. Taking 80 damage from the mob in the last 8 seconds of the fight is 80 HP, which is 40 mana, the difference from paralzying earth. Or 60 mana from a second Enstill if the fight needs to last longer. I am not saying Enstill would never work, but just looking at the possible scenarios shows that it doesn't end up helping as much as you think.

[Troxx]

It really doesn’t matter if the mob has 4500hp or 7000hp. In fact, the more hp the mob has you actually get more efficient as it opens up the disease line of dots.

I’m not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal. I already did the napkin math for you once. If you’re confused - read it again. It you have a problem with the numbers or think the math was off - let me know and we can discuss.

Let the pet tank. Give it regen. If you don’t, you’re leaving 45hp/tick on the table and it’s getting wasted. Capitalize on 2 pools of hp both with high regen. Turn regen into mana. Profit.

JBB is less efficient after yard trash under the level of ravishing drolvargs green out. Mob more than doubles and mob damage output rises sharply. 55 pet was the ultimate turning point and by then you have regrowth (a shaman’s most efficient heal in the game).

Ps: indirectly, slow is the most efficient shaman heal

With regards to root: I used the lowest level one. It costs like 30 mana and lasts for a minute. Mob doesn’t have to stay permanently rooted. Pet will build aggro and usually holds if it breaks after a minute. If root breaks early, it’s a cheap recast - and it casts fast.

Root it again and take a step back. It’s not hard.


GIVE THE PET REGROWTH AND IT REGENS 45 a tick

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It really doesn’t matter if the mob has 4500hp or 7000hp. In fact, the more hp the mob has you actually get more efficient as it opens up the disease line of dots.

I’m not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal. I already did the napkin math for you once. If you’re confused - read it again. It you have a problem with the numbers or think the math was off - let me know and we can discuss.

Let the pet tank. Give it regen. If you don’t, you’re leaving 45hp/tick on the table and it’s getting wasted. Capitalize on 2 pools of hp both with high regen. Turn regen into mana. Profit.

JBB is less efficient after yard trash under the level of ravishing drolvargs green out. Mob more than doubles and mob damage output rises sharply. 55 pet was the ultimate turning point and by then you have regrowth (a shaman’s most efficient heal in the game).

Ps: indirectly, slow is the most efficient shaman heal

With regards to root: I used the lowest level one. It costs like 30 mana and lasts for a minute. Mob doesn’t have to stay permanently rooted. Pet will build aggro and usually holds if it breaks after a minute. If root breaks early, it’s a cheap recast - and it casts fast.

Root it again and take a step back. It’s not hard.

I showed you the math. JBB is superior all the way to 60. You'll need to rebut what I've shown if you think it is wrong.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

GIVE THE PET REGROWTH AND IT REGENS 45 a tick

It also adds 300 mana cost per 15 minutes, or 1200 mana spent per hour.

[Troxx]

Why do I even bother. Pearls before swine.

Oh well. I tried

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why do I even bother. Pearls before swine.

Oh well. I tried

I appreciate your attempt! But you didn't deliver, and have yet to rebut my last post https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=420 . Bcbrown corrected a few minor errors (thanks!), but it isn't enough to change the outcome.

[bcbrown]

DSM, could you address Troxx's scenario on the previous page? I'd like to see that before I continue nitpicking your calculations.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, could you address Troxx's scenario on the previous page? I'd like to see that before I continue nitpicking your calculations.

Sure. Unfortunately Troxx has excluded a number of variables, which is why he thinks he is correct when he is not. The mic drop was premature sadly.

Using Troxx's example, the Mob has 4500 HP and deals 10 DPS slowed. We are a level 58 Shaman that has Regrowth on, and has hasted their pet. Mana costs for self Regrowth and Pet Haste are ignored for this test, since both Shamans will do it. This means the reduction in mana per tick is the same for both the Iksar Shaman and the Ogre Shaman.

I did make a few minor errors in my calculations in the previous post, but they end up working out better for JBB anyway. A Canni Dancing Ogre Shaman is getting 32 mana per tick. This is because you get 6 + 15 = 21 HP from sitting + Regrowth on the tick, and 21 from meditate. After cannibalizing this equates to 32 mana per tick. A Canni Dancing Iksar Shaman is getting 16 + 15 = 31 HP from sitting + Regrowth on the tick, and 21 from meditate. This equates to 37 mana per tick.

JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge (2.2 DPS from half duration of procced Dot and initial DD) = 53 DPS. A JBB Shaman would kill a mob with 4500 HP in 85 seconds. You would get 14 ticks of standing HP regen + Regrowth, so you would reduce incoming damage by (15 + 3) X 14 = 252. You get 14 mana from the standing mana regen. This means the JBB Shaman spent a Total of 175 (Slow) + ((850 damage taken - 252 damage reduced) / 2) - 14 Mana = 460 mana spent. A canni dancing Ogre is getting 32 mana per tick. That means it takes 86 seconds to recover out of combat. Time per mob = 85 + 86 = 171 seconds including recovery time after the fight.

A DoT Shaman using 2x EBolts, Hasted + Regen Pet, 1x Slow and 1x Paralzying Earth would kill the mob in 115 seconds. This is because the Pet would be fighting the entire time. 2x Ebolts would do 2556 damage in 112 seconds including cast time, and it takes 115 seconds for the pet to do the remainder damage at 17 DPS. Since the pet and DoT's are going simultaneously and this includes DoT cast time, this is correct. The mana spent on this would be 320 x 2 (EBolt) + 175 (Slow) + 100 (Paralzying Earth) = 915 from spell costs. A canni dancing Shaman would not be able to canni dance during spell casting in combat. This means you are also losing 4 ticks of meditate (84 mana and 24 sitting HP), for an extra 96 mana worth of cost. This means you spend 1011 mana per fight. You are casting Regen on your pet while a JBB Shaman is not, which means you are spending 1300 mana per hour, including the meditation tick loss. This equates to -2.2 mana per tick. A canni dancing Iksar that is Regening their pet is therefore getting 34.8 mana per tick. Time per mob = 174 seconds including recovery time after the fight.

I am specifically using Paralzying Earth instead of Root on the DoTTing Shaman because Troxx cannot simply assume the pet will always have agro after a low level root, which only lasts 48 seconds and can break early. Just using these calculations alone, the JBB Shaman is 3 seconds faster per encounter. Realistically this number is higher, because the DoTTing shaman in this scenario is assumed to never get a root break, spell resist, never get hit by the mob at all, and never miss a canni dance in combat outside of casting. Obviously this is unrealistic in practice. This is why JBB is better all the way until level 60. You do less work and cast less spells for the same base kill speed. This simplified playstyle reduces the RnG chances that your XP session will be interrupted by bad luck.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am specifically using Paralzying Earth instead of Root on the DoTTing Shaman because Troxx cannot simply assume the pet will always have agro after a low level root, which only lasts 48 seconds and can break early.

This is a bad faith adjustment - you of all people should be able to appreciate the value of the pet spamming taunt.

If Troxx reports that he has found the low level taunt to be enough time for the pet to build aggro, I take him at his word, just as I take you at your word when you report your experiences.

If you truly are open to learning new strategies and changing your mind, isn't this worth exploring and attempting?

Your weapon proc calculations aren't correct yet, but I'm not sure I'm willing to calculate the correct value if you're not going to approach this in good faith.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a bad faith adjustment - you of all people should be able to appreciate the value of the pet spamming taunt.

If Troxx reports that he has found the low level taunt to be enough time for the pet to build aggro, I take him at his word, just as I take you at your word when you report your experiences.

If you truly are open to learning new strategies and changing your mind, isn't this worth exploring and attempting?

Your weapon proc calculations aren't correct yet, but I'm not sure I'm willing to calculate the correct value if you're not going to approach this in good faith.

I have done plenty of rooting and pet tanking before. Spells like Slow generate a lot of hate in the early stages of the fight. Your DoTs and Root are generating hate too. Assuming a 48 second root is always going to be enough when you have RNG on taunt and root breaks is obviously silly. You are going to encur HP or mana costs from root due to it being resisted or broken early in some fights. You can't just ignore that. Either you use a higher mana slow to cover those cases in the example, or you assume that you are casting at least 2x 30 mana roots per fight. Just remember that casting another spell in combat incurs another meditation tick penalty, which is 26 mana on an Iksar. That is 30 + 30 + 26 = 86 mana. A root break also come with potential damage. If you took even 1 hit, you've basically spent the same mana as Paralyzing Earth.

The fight lasts 85 seconds. A Shaman can easily get some DEX gear and buff themselves. At 170 Dex you get 1.5 PPM. An 85 second fight would have have 2 procs on average, which gets halved by JBB. So yes, you would get 1 proc per fight on average.

Finally, Troxx always approaches discussions like this in bad faith, and that is clear from his trolling. You have trolled this thread too. You are not in a position to be judging others.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Either you use a higher mana slow to cover those cases in the example, or you assume that you are casting at least 2x 30 mana roots per fight. Just remember that casting another spell in combat incurs another meditation tick penalty, which is 26 mana on an Iksar. That is 30 + 30 + 26 = 86 mana. A root break also come with potential damage. If you took even 1 hit, you've basically spent the same mana as Paralyzing Earth.

What do you mean by higher mana slow? Aren't we already using Turgur's? And certainly - there will be some fights where lil doggo can't keep aggro. But if in most fights a single 30m root is sufficient, while maybe one in ten requires a second cast - you'll still be far more efficient than going with paralyzing earth.

But, to be clear - I'm not saying it's bad faith to dispute the assumption that root is sufficient. I'm saying that proceeding to calculating numbers while implicitly disputing assumptions is in bad faith - numbers are meaningless without an agreed-upon set of assumptions.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fight lasts 85 seconds. A Shaman can easily get some DEX gear and buff themselves. At 170 Dex you get 1.5 PPM. An 85 second fight would have have 2 procs on average, which gets halved by JBB. So yes, you would get 1 proc per fight on average.

I know you don't like it when I use the big fancy math words, but unfortunately this is a case where they are necessary. You need to account for the fact procs are memoryless - the likelihood of a proc on any given swing is independent of whether or not any prior swings had a proc. This is a binomial distribution - a series of weighted coin flips. Some fights will have no procs at all, and some fights will have back-to-back procs. Since the proc is a dot, back to back procs are in essence mostly wasted.

I can calculate the expected damage due to procs, but given your past hostility to calculations of expected values, I'm only willing to do so if you're genuinely interested. Off the top of my head, I expect it to end up somewhere between one half and three quarters of the naive calculation.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Finally, Troxx always approaches discussions like this in bad faith, and that is clear from his trolling. You have trolled this thread too. You are not in a position to be judging others.

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I would never judge another person, nor presume to know what is in their heart. It is the act that I label, and not the person. I am not here to defend Troxx - it is not I to whom he shall have to answer. I try to learn from anyone who has something to teach me, regardless of whatever personal failings they may have. I've learned a ton from you! I bought a PWC and SCHW on your advice, and that served me very well indeed.

If you think I've trolled you, that saddens me, and I can only offer a heartfelt apology, whether or not it is accepted. I feel bad about last night. I made an honest mistake - I thought you said you hadn't deleted and reposted. That made me excited that perhaps I found a bug in the bulletin board software; I'm aware that that may be hard to understand and easy to mock, but to put it in familiar terms I guess it's like stumbling across Quillmane back before the whole idea of placeholders was well understood.