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#2
01-26-2024, 02:06 PM
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FSI is better than Regen when dealing with a Flurry, because not getting stunned from a bash increases your chances of landing a slow before you die. You get more auto attack swings from https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh , and you are more likely to land the slow you are casting.
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#3
01-26-2024, 02:24 PM
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I experienced JBB until (I think) level 56. Mob hp got higher and it was a choice between standing there clicking JBB (+/- adding my own dots) and either trying to let dog tank or simply face tanking. Dog would not be reliable in holding aggro, so it meant the mob was on me.
Fastest kill speed: dog + dot + jbb Medium kill speed: dog + jbb no dot Slightly slower: load some dots + dog tank + me med vs cannidance Why did the third option just end up better over time even though the individual kill speed was slightly lower? Efficiency resulted in less down time and faster pull tempo. JBB meant I was face tanking. JBB meant I was not only missing out on extra regen and med ticks from sitting during the fight, I was actively taking the damage vs letting the pet do that. Pet regens 30 per tick baseline. More with a regen buff. You and I both know that shaman pets properly buffed are actually pretty good meat shields. By capitalizing on both the pet’s innate regen , regen buff, my own innate regen (sitting), fungi, and buff regen - well between the two of us we were rocking along at 30 + 15 + 15 + 15 (75 total health per tick) combined BEFORE you factor in troll racial regen while sitting. This is vs just my own regen and not getting to sit. So yeah 91 regen (16 racial sitting) combined between the two of us. It was nearly 1/3 of a continuous torpor that only required a regrowth refresh every nearly 20 minutes. Pet health regen covered the dps of mobs in this level range very nicely and heals were infrequent and not very necessary- super efficient. My own regen covered the hits I would take here and there and funnel all that extra back into my mana bar. By not standing and chain clicking, I would also hit a lot of med ticks. Even when the fights took a bit longer, I would kill more total mobs over any given unit time as each fight would end with me simply ready for the next. With JBB chain clicking there were no med ticks. My innate regen was cut in half. I would be the one actively taking the damage which would require either time or mana to recover, and I’d have less mana from not canni’ing or dancing along the way. You can show all the cute math of what a “free” clicky gives you in terms of dps, but don’t neglect the opportunity cost of having all of your everything fully occupied during the time you’re face tanking the damage and mindlessly clicking JBB. Then again, Troll regen was there. You like to quote the differences while standing but I promise it’s a much wider gap while sitting. Yes. Mid-50s it became less efficient than just playing differently and more efficiently. It was then I realized that my once overpowered self-PL tool was now just a cute toy. Beyond that - the best results were with a duo buddy and god damn if it wasn’t boring as fuck. Shaman is such a dynamic class. It’s a shame to see it relegated to slowing a mob on incomming. And then just mindlessly hitting one key until it was dead. Sold it. No regrets. Don’t want another. Would sell another immediately if I won one in a group.
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#4
01-26-2024, 02:56 PM
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Average mob DPS at that level after being slowed is around 10 DPS at worst I believe, looking at some quick fights. 10 x 1800 seconds = 18000 HP if you are face tanking. A level 58 Iksar is going to be regenerating at +17 HP over Barbarians/Ogres, assuming you canni dance perfectly for 30 minutes straight. This is 5100 HP. This means an Iksar who is root/rotting and never gets hit is saving 23100 HP in that time frame at best, assuming perfect play. Using Cannibalize 3 (better before Torpor due to faster cast rate, easier to canni dance with), that means an Iksar is saving 11781 mana at best. If you click JBB 6 times per minute, that is a total of 180 clicks. 180 clicks = 47340 damage. 47340 / 1648 (damage done from 1x Bane of Nife) = 29 casts x 425 mana = 12325 mana saved from casting damage spells. A Shaman who is face tanking is also saving mana by not casting root. Assuming you are fighting 1 mob every 2 minutes, that is an additional 1500 mana saved minimum by not spending 100 mana per root on paralyzing earth. If you are having your pet tank while you sit and recover, you'll need to slow the mob, just like when you face tank. If you don't you'll need to spend time controlling your pet by backing it off, which lowers DPS. Baseline you are looking at 11781 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 mana saved with a Shaman who is face tanking with JBB. The JBB + face tank strategy is easier to use than perfectly canni dancing at all times (less APM and worrying about server ticks) and never getting hit while root/rotting. Realistically you probably will miss some server ticks, so the 11781 mana value will be lower in practice. The number of root breaks is going to be greater than 0, so JBB is realistically saving more on root costs too. Now, you will say "but spell resists". I can tell you from experience that JBB rarely gets resisted on trash mobs while leveling. I honestly stopped maloing while leveling because it wasn't necessary. The opportunity cost of getting a single resist from a Bane of Nife is also higher than JBB. A resist on JBB costs no mana, a resist on Bane is 425 mana. JBB + Face tanking is giving you a 15% boost in mana over an Iksar root/rotting without Epic assuming perfect play. Realistically it is higher since perfect root/rot play with perfect canni dancing is harder to do. As I said, trivial to disprove.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-26-2024 at 03:00 PM..
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#6
01-26-2024, 03:41 PM
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As a small addendum to the previous post:
https://project1999.com/forums/showp...&postcount=411 If you want to take into account the Iksar regen for the 30 minutes of pulling/recovering/waiting for respawns, that is another 2601 mana assuming you canni dance for an hour straight without missing a tick somehow. That is 14382 mana saved per hour on an Iksar Shaman who is root rotting if they canni dance for an hour straight without missing a single server tick, they never get a root break, and they never get hit. A JBB Shaman is saving 13825 mana per hour. It is a nearly impossible task to get the 500 mana over a JBB Shaman in the same hour. The JBB Shaman simply needs to cast slow, spam jbb, position the pet behind the mob, and pull. Realistically speaking the JBB Shaman is saving a significant amount of mana compared to the Iksar Shamam who is root rotting without Epic in the same hour.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-26-2024 at 03:53 PM..
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#8
01-26-2024, 06:21 PM
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This is the scenario: You are a level 58 Shaman. Let's get some real mob data in as well, to ensure we are using the right amount of DPS/Mana spent per kill. I'll look at https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Ratfink as the example, as PoM Rat Maze is a good spot to XP at 58. They have 7000 HP according to the Wiki, and looking at my SK's data when he was up there, the amount of damage needed to kill this mob matches the wiki. I will not be taking into account the mana spent on Regrowth and Haste, since both Shamans are going to spend this mana anyway. First let's look at combat, where we assume the mob is doing an average of 10 DPS after being slowed: The level 55 Shaman pet does 17 DPS while hasted on average. If you cast 2x Bane of Nife and 2x Envenomed Bolt, you will kill the mob after 96 seconds. This is because 96 x 17 = 1632 damage, and 1278 x 2 + 1648 x 2 = 5852. 5852 + 1632 = 7484 damage, which is close enough when taking into account mob regen. The Iksar Shaman is spending a minimum of 320 x 2 (EBolt) + 425 x 2 (Bane) + 100 (Root) + 175 (Slow) = 1765 mana per mob. In 96 seconds you are realistically getting 10 ticks of sitting, as you will probably miss the ticks while casting spells. Bane is 5 seconds of cast time, and Ebolt is 6 seconds of cast time. Root + Canni 3 and Slow + Canni 3 is also going to end up being 5ish seconds each. You are getting 210 mana back from the 10 meditation ticks, 160 HP from sitting ticks, and +42 HP over Barbarians/Ogres from the 6 standing ticks. This reduces mana cost by 311. So you are spending 1454 mana per mob. JBB does 32.8 DPS, and the pet does 17 DPS. This means the JBB Shaman will need to cast 2x Ebolts in addition to JBB to kill the mob in the same time. The JBB Shaman is spending a minimum of 175 (Slow) + 320 x 2 (EBolt) = 815 mana per mob. Assuming the mob is doing an average of 10 DPS after being slowed, this Shaman is also taking 960 damage, which is converted into 490 mana. So you are spending 1305 per mob. A few extra factors need to be taken into consideration: 1. If a mob is doing 10 DPS, that means a tanking pet is going to need to back off of the mob every ~200 seconds to recover some HP so it doesn't die. Fights last 100 seconds each, which means your pet is going to be out of 1/3 fights roughly speaking, as they will need to spend time recovering. This means you will need to cast an extra DoT like Plague in 1/3 fights. This adds another 100 mana to the amount spent per mob. Now we are at 1554 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1305 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman. 2. Realistically speaking root breaks occur, so you will not get away with 1 root per mob always. I don't have an exact figure on root break percentages, but let's just throw a random number out and say 1/10 roots break. This will add another 15 mana per mob roughly speaking when looking at mana spent, a meditation tick lost, and damage taken. Now we are at 1569 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1305 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman. 3. Spell resists are a bigger problem on Root/Rotting Shamans. They do not occur often, but let's say it is 2% of the time. The root/rotting Shaman has 6 spells that can be randomly resisted, with an average cost of 228 mana. This means you have a 12% chance of losing 228 per fight. This is another additional cost of 27 mana per fight on an Iksar. A JBB Shaman is casting 3 spells with an average mana cost of 271. This means you have a 6% chance of losing 271 mana. This is an additional cost of 16 mana for the JBB Shaman. A resisted JBB costs zero mana. Now we are at 1585 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1321 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman. 4. A face tanking Shaman can melee in combat, allowing them to proc weapons. https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,...of_the_Scourge is 4 DPS when it procs. Assuming an average proc rate of 1 per minute, the mob is taking an extra 2 DPS total, assuming it gets half ticks in. That means the mob is dying a bit faster, which reduces damage taken. Assuming you can kill the mob roughly 6 seconds faster, you will save 30 mana from damage. Now we are at 1571 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1291 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman. Next let's look at the recovery out of combat. A Barbarian/Ogre with Regrowth is getting 24 HP and 21 Mana from Canni Dance with Regrowth. An Iksar with Regrowth is getting 41 HP and 21 Mana from Canni Dance with Regrowth. This means 33 Mana per tick on the Barbarian/Ogre vs. 41 Mana per tick on the Iksar. It takes ~38.3 ticks to recover the mana from spending 1585 mana per mob on an Iksar. It takes ~38.6 ticks to recover the mana from spending 1291 mana per mob. As you can see, they are essentially equal on paper when taking into account the number of ticks it takes to recover from a fight, assuming you just keep pulling mobs back to back within an hour. It's a difference of 0-1 ticks per encounter. The JBB Shaman doesn't have to worry about root breaks, pet management, and perfect canni dancing during combat. They also have to worry less about spell resists, due to the opportunity cost of a single resist being lower. This is why JBB Shamans end up being more efficient by a significant amount. They have less things to do per fight, and have less opportunities for RnG to screw you over.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-26-2024 at 06:51 PM..
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#10
01-26-2024, 08:03 PM
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Hybrid Mode
