Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[Naethyn]

I solo'd Tserrina on my human warrior.

[Jimjam]

But soloing ww dragons isn’t a min max situation so it isn’t really valid evidence.

In minmax situations stamina isn’t an issue for shamans.

From what I can tell shamans end game (so min maz) role is in tov landing resist debuffs, slow and patch healing. Oh and buffing. How applicable are ww dragon solos to these?

Edit: sorry guys, I’m getting drawn off topic. Defining and testing min max is really beyond the scope of this thread. Please accept my apologies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But soloing ww dragons isn’t a min max situation so it isn’t really valid evidence.

In minmax situations stamina isn’t an issue for shamans.

From what I can tell shamans end game (so min maz) role is in tov landing resist debuffs, slow and patch healing. Oh and buffing. How applicable are ww dragon solos to these?

In Everquest the reality is people Solo, Group, and Raid. This means you need to consider all three of these playstyles for Min/Max. It's not really correct to say "Endgame is only raiding", when you can clearly see plenty of level 60's soloing content consistently across P99's lifetime. Same with grouping to kill mobs like Fungi King.

But for a moment, let's humor your idea that Raiding is the only thing that matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k - This is an example of raid buffing 10 people. In that time, an Iksar/Troll would gain around 1k HP over a Barbarian/Ogre. This is the equivalent of 1 Torpor. A raid is gaining no benefit from a Shaman recovering 30 seconds faster after a buff session.

An important role Shamans have in Raids is landing slows. Shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in melee to potentially land slows faster in critical fights. FSI increases your chance of landing a proc, because your autoattacks are not being interrupted by a random stun if you gain agro. You are also reducing the odds of your cast Slows being interrupted. Iksar/Troll Regeneration is too slow to save you from a Flurry Drake quadding you for 700, so FSI is more useful. Any Shaman who consistently gets agro from a raid mob is dying in like 30 seconds or less. Iksar/Troll Regeneration isn't going to save you.

The only time Iksar/Troll Regeneration is somewhat useful in a raid is reducing AoE damage from the few fights where you can't really resist it. Increasing the chance of landing slows is more important than that since AoE damage is already manageable without Iksar/Troll Regeneration.

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In
An important role Shamans have in Raids is landing slows. Shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in melee to potentially land slows faster in critical fights. FSI increases your chance of landing a proc, because your autoattacks are not being interrupted by a random stun if you gain agro. You are also reducing the odds of your cast Slows being interrupted. Iksar/Troll Regeneration is too slow to save you from a Flurry Drake quadding you for 700, so FSI is more useful. Any Shaman who consistently gets agro from a raid mob is dying in like 30 seconds or less. Iksar/Troll Regeneration isn't going to save you.

I like this because its relatively quantifiable.

Generally, the situation would be:
1) Shaman must emergency slow flurry due to tank death
2) Shaman gets aggro after landing a cast slow (which is usually how they'll get aggro)

The shaman is dead before they cast again in this case. There's essentially 0 chance of surviving through a cast, much less the recharge time. However, FSI might let you get 1 additional swing of the shilleagh in, since there is a decent chance the Shaman will be killed in 2 combat rounds instead of 1. Very infrequently a Shaman might survive two combat rounds with a flurry, but usually they'll die on the second one.

There's about a 5% chance of proccing on swing. FSI has to actually work to make the difference of getting that swing. Looking at my logs, it looks like Flurries are bashing about once every 3 combat rounds, so maybe a 1/3 chance of bash. Flurries have about a 75% hit rate, so it has to hit you with that.

I don't have the % chance to get stunned by a bash, but if I count the first 25 bashes I have in my log file, I got stunned 5 times, so will estimate 20%.

That's a 0.25% chance, which is further reduced by:
--Does it resist? I don't know what the resist rates look like.
--Did that make a difference for the raid? If someone else slows it, it doesn't matter, but if that's the last slow attempt you just saved the raid with FSI.

Honestly, if its even a 1 in 1000 chance of saving the raid, that's kind of better than I thought it might be coming into this analysis.

[Naethyn]

There are shamans with plane of sky ring and shamans without plane of sky ring and that is the biggest differentiator.

[PatChapp]

This is a lot of arguing over something pretty pointless

Focus plk

[fortior]

you can't minmax without a goal to achieve, there is no intrinsic goal you are given in EQ. you have to actually minmax 'for' something, some sort of task or challenge. there's no main quest or achievement list. the closest thing is getting to max level, which barbarians do fastest. getting BiS is another 'obvious' goal which is just time spent raiding, again barbarians win.

if you can kill a mob as an ogre shaman as well as a barbarian shaman, the barbarian shaman is the minmax option because you can do it sooner, since both kill at the same rate, and there's no mob in the game one can kill but the other can't.

a race that takes a penalty to experience in return for a benefit that doesn't translate to killing speed or killing ability is just something you pick for vanity. it's not like iksar monks, who get a huge advantage in regen which helps while xping, or mage, where gnomes can coth effectively while the other races need shrinks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you can't minmax without a goal to achieve, there is no intrinsic goal you are given in EQ. you have to actually minmax 'for' something, some sort of task or challenge. there's no main quest or achievement list. the closest thing is getting to max level, which barbarians do fastest. getting BiS is another 'obvious' goal which is just time spent raiding, again barbarians win.

if you can kill a mob as an ogre shaman as well as a barbarian shaman, the barbarian shaman is the minmax option because you can do it sooner, since both kill at the same rate, and there's no mob in the game one can kill but the other can't.

a race that takes a penalty to experience in return for a benefit that doesn't translate to killing speed or killing ability is just something you pick for vanity. it's not like iksar monks, who get a huge advantage in regen which helps while xping, or mage, where gnomes can coth effectively while the other races need shrinks.

It is strange that you admit Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, but you simultaneously claim that there is no default definition for Min/Max. You can't claim there is no default definition for Min/Max, because then you would have no basis in which to say Iksar Monks are superior. This is why you are wrong in saying there is no default definition of Min/Max.

By admitting Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, you admit there is an objective best racial for different race/class combinations. You can't have it both ways and say that Shamans don't also have an objective best racial.

You know the definition of Min/Max subconsciously, because you understand Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks. This Min/Max definition is the default definition for all games like Everquest. The default Min/Max definition is to create the best character you can. This means a character that will perform better than it's alternatives when you are level 60 with max gear and all your spells. This is why Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks, because a level 60 BiS Iksar Monk will still have Racial Regeneration, while a level 60 BiS Human Monk would not.

I am not sure why this is so difficult, the Min/Max definition for games like Everquest hasn't changed, and Everquest came out in 1999.

[fortior]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is weird that you admit Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, but you simultaneously think that there is no definition of Min/Maxing. This is why you are wrong in saying there is no default definition of Min/Max.

By admitting Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, you admit there is an objective best racial for different race/class combinations. You can't have it both ways and say that Shamans don't also have an objective best racial.

You know the definition of Min/Max subconsciously, because you understand Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks. This Min/Max definition is the default definition for all games like Everquest. The default Min/Max definition is to create the best character you can. This means a character that will perform better than it's alternatives when you are level 60 with max gear and all your spells. This is why Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks, because a level 60 BiS Iksar Monk will still have Racial Regeneration, while a level 60 BiS Human Monk would not.

I am not sure why this is so difficult, the Min/Max definition for games like Everquest hasn't changed, and Everquest came out in 1999.

Monks don't have torpor or slow, theyre a melee class, so there's stuff an iksar monk can kill that an equivalently geared human monk can't. for shamans every shaman with torpor can do the exact same mobs, which is anything they can slow or anything that deals less damage than torpor. If there is a goal ogre shamans can achieve which other shamans can't, the situation would be different, but there isn't.

disregarding xp maluses as irrelevant is spherical cow stuff, if you do it you basically don't know anything about the game or p99's version of it. P99 is a very competitive classic EQ box, speed is king. if there are two options, and one levels faster, and both can do the same content, the faster option is better

You can't say one race performs better than another when there is no content in the game that distinguishes between them, i.e. which one race can do but another can't. my iksar monk can solo things my human monk can't at similar gear levels, it's not the same situation (since the difference is just a bunch of hp regen and ac on a melee)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monks don't have torpor or slow, theyre a melee class, so there's stuff an iksar monk can kill that an equivalently geared human monk can't. for shamans every shaman with torpor can do the exact same mobs, which is anything they can slow or anything that deals less damage than torpor. If there is a goal ogre shamans can achieve which other shamans can't, the situation would be different, but there isn't.

You admitted that some racials are better than others. It doesn't matter if the racial bonus is significant or not. The same logic applies. You can rank order any racial in terms of best to worse on any class, even if the racial is only a minor bonus. You can't have it both ways and say racials on Monks can be rank ordered, but racials from other classes cannot be rank ordered.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

disregarding xp maluses as irrelevant is spherical cow stuff, if you do it you basically don't know anything about the game or p99's version of it. P99 is a very competitive classic EQ box, speed is king. if there are two options, and one levels faster, and both can do the same content, the faster option is better

Leveling quickly is only relevant for a short time on P99, when the server is new or rolling out new content. Neither server has been like that for years. Trying to claim this is still the case on Green or Blue is silly. Even in that scenario you are not picking the Min/Max option, you are instead picking the fastest leveling option to get a specific item. Sure, you can level a Mage to 50 to farm Manastones, but then you have a 50 Mage you probably aren't going to use in Velious for anything other than a CoTH bot.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't say one race performs better than another when there is no content in the game that distinguishes between them, i.e. which one race can do but another can't. my iksar monk can solo things my human monk can't at similar gear levels, it's not the same situation (since the difference is just a bunch of hp regen and ac on a melee)

You easily can. If an Ogre Shaman can win fights more often than Shamans of other races due to FSI, even if that increase in won fights is small, then they are superior.

Your argument that "it isn't significant" is irrelevant. 2% is better than 1%, just like 50% is better than 30%. This is an objective truth regardless of the difference in percentages.