Project Quarm - 1 Box Planes of Power

[loramin]

Look, I don't have strong opinions on rules enforcement on emulated EQ servers .. I truly don't. I just see an unsolved problem.

I also agree: anti-cheats are invasive, and (all else being equal) invasive solutions are worse. I've even previously agreed that MQ-based cheating can be solved without the need for invasive anti-cheats.

But, I just don't see how a petition/GM-only system can solve ShowEQ. If the server sends info to the client (like which nameds are up), there's nothing to stop another program on that client (eg. ShowEQ) from seeing it ... and if someone abuses that info, there's no way to detect it (without anti-cheats).

So, I'm not at all saying "Quarm must use an anti-cheat". If Secrets could (say) limit the server so that it only sends data on NPCs nearby, it would solve ShowEQ without the need for anti-cheats.

But without some plan to address ShowEQ, it feels like you anyone saying "Quarm won't have cheaters" is just doing this:

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[Secrets]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, I'm not at all saying "Quarm must use an anti-cheat". If Secrets could (say) limit the server so that it only sends data on NPCs nearby, it would solve ShowEQ without the need for anti-cheats.

But without some plan to address ShowEQ, it feels like you anyone saying "Quarm won't have cheaters" is just doing this

The server already sends data on NPCs nearby only, at least in terms of movement data, not names.

The petition/GM-only system won't be the only component on launch. There will be one that is both client-side, and serverside too.
There will be measures to track folks that are cheating that won't be in the public release of Quarm. This measure will likely see the same scrutiny that P99 has with their anticheat, and I intend to forward those complaints to the toilet as they do.

It's also fair to assume that folks are cheating the same way on P99 as they would be on Quarm.. a few may slip past the cracks, and that few is all a guild or group needs to impact the game.

So, in actuality, I don't think it'll be any different than P99's cheating situation as of today. People are getting caught with manual GM observation on P99 still, and automatic layers of detection also exist to catch those that aren't as tech savvy, but utilize cheat programs.

That will be the case with us, though we're putting about the same level of effort into detection that P99 is, so...

[Seducio]

An undeniable metric of success for Project Quarm would be if it becomes popular enough that Daybreak/Dark Paw/'whoever owns IP' reaches out to make an agreement with PQ like they did with p99 after its success reached a level of being noticed.

If Quarm gets a request like that it would already be successful enough to have gotten on the radar. If it can weather that kind of a request and continue to grow afterward like p99 did, then the scene as a whole will evolve quite a bit.

Am I in wishful thinking territory? Perhaps. I think your concerns are legitimate Loramin. Many old school EQers and us P99ers in particular don't like cheating. I think these concerns are being considered by the Quarm team.

There will be push back from some players with regard to dev decisions along the way regardless of which direction those decisions go. A non-corrupt lead CSR manager would go a long way in freeing up Secrets time, but it comes at a cost of power diffusion. If Secrets shows fortitude and innovation in dealing with issues that will inevitably crop up along the way all old school EQ players will ultimately benefit.

[loramin]

All I'm asking is this.

I'm a ShowEQ user: I play the game and look indistinguishable from a normal user, but I cheat and see what mobs are up when I enter a zone.

How will you (or the rest of the Quarm staff) catch me? It seems like a straightforward and fair question to ask, and you don't have to provide all the secret tricks being used to catch cheaters, I'm just looking for a simple/general explanation.

[Secrets]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All I'm asking is this.

I'm a ShowEQ user: I play the game and look indistinguishable from a normal user, but I cheat and see what mobs are up when I enter a zone.

How will you (or the rest of the Quarm staff) catch me? It seems like a straightforward and fair question to ask, and you don't have to provide all the secret tricks being used to catch cheaters, I'm just looking for a simple/general explanation.

The following realistic options exist outside of being invasive. Going into detail on any of these would make it fairly easy to bypass any protections:
1) Clientside detection / prevention. Invasive measures could be taken in the future if cheating becomes a problem / pervasive.
2) Serverside manipulation of the client with data provided to it.
3) Manual observation in combination with the above.

These are the measures P99 has taken and we'll be doing similar measures. Though, subjectively more or less effective in some cases.

The biggest deterrence (ie; the above covers detection/prevention, see: https://technology.riotgames.com/new...ach-anti-cheat) that EQ has is its insane time commitment.
There is only so much damage one person can do in a limited period of time, and the risks of being banned and actively caught outweigh the benefit of cheating in almost every case.

[loramin]

So, not to be flippant, but it sounds like the plan is to wait and see if it's a problem, and then either institute an anti-cheat or somehow observe/catch the cheaters? Do I have that correct?

The only issue, as I've already mentioned, is that observation will be very challenging (impossible?), because ShowEQ cheaters aren't observably different the way MQ cheaters are.

But let's run with that plan of waiting to see how bad the cheating is before you address it. Just one other simple question then: how are you going to know whether you have a cheating problem or not?

Again, the whole core problem is that these cheaters aren't detectable.

[Secrets]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But let's run with that plan of waiting to see how bad the cheating is before you address it. Just one other simple question then: how are you going to know whether you have a cheating problem or not?

Again, the whole core problem is that these cheaters aren't detectable.

People are social creatures. In my opinion, we'll know very quickly because those who brag are loud and bolsterous. Just the other day I had someone come in my stream and say "Yeah, I fucking cheat. I'm going to be using it here too as I did on P99." and while I have no way of verifying they did, I'm going to put people like that under higher scrutiny, and their guildmembers will also put them under higher scrutiny if they know the risk if them getting banned or their guild disbanded over a few rotten eggs.

Personally, I'd take direct admissions with enough context to remove someone, outside of the other detections - provided we have enough facts to act on. That doesn't mean you'll be banned for saying 'im 12 and what is this' for being underage, it means that there's context and some sort of legitimacy to the claim that results in the action.

This is exactly how P99 operates right now, by the way - the fear is prevalent for getting banned, and it only took Rogean & co a few banwaves before people shaped up and subsequently accused him of malware claims as a last-ditch effort to get people to stop playing, because 'if they can't, no one else should be able to'.

There's a human psychology element to this, of course. But also, P99 can't detect SEQ any more than Quarm would be able to, in theory that you're describing.

They can, though, for stuff running local like MySEQ. And they have banned for that here, I'd assume.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But also, P99 can't detect SEQ any more than Quarm would be able to, in theory that you're describing.

Yeah, I forgot ShowEQ didn't have to be on the same machine ... and probably wouldn't be, unless you're a weirdo like me who plays EQ on Linux.

I still don't buy that all (or even most) cheaters will be dumb enough to out themselves, but you're right that some ShowEQ usage is just unavoidable, for any EQEmu server. The only real solution is to limit data sent by the server.

(As an aside, I'm very curious about how much the server can limit data sent to the client, and how much "ShowEQ data" has to be sent, just because of how the EQ client works.)

Anyhow, FWIW I'm now fully convinced Quarm is in good hands in terms of anti-cheating ... even without an invasive anti-cheat. Thank you Secrets for taking the time to engage and explain it all [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Seducio]

Are you open to the notion that the solution to your very question may evolve over time?

Early on in Blue's inception many of these very questions were still unanswered. The p99 team had to monitor what the players were up to and create boundaries as they went. They were building the plane as they flew it.

Expecting game devs to get everything right on day 1 is something that went away in the 90s.

[Trexller]

that's how things went on Blue launch.

at one point, there were so many of us using MQ that they couldn't ban everyone

we got a 10% reduction in total XP and accts stripped of all coin as a thanks

nobody ever mentions it tho, i can't be that old...