sk starting points - Page 7

DeathsSilkyMist · #1 08-08-2023, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Thank you for continuing to prove you are a nothing but a troll.

Please stop posting off-topic nonsense. If you think you are correct, you need to bring more than bad gifs.

Troxx · #2 08-08-2023, 10:50 PM

Oh I consistently have thoughtful input ripe with insight. My opinions, complete with supporting rationale, have been shared already. You have also shared yours. Repeating the same thing dozens of times does not add value.

I learned a long time ago that trying to argue and reason with you (specifically you) is pointless and only results in 400+ page-long threads of autistic sputtering.

GIFs are a far better approach.

Tally ho!

DeathsSilkyMist · #3 08-08-2023, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh I consistently have thoughtful input ripe with insight. My opinions, complete with supporting rationale, have been shared already. You have also shared yours. Repeating the same thing dozens of times does not add value.

I learned a long time ago that trying to argue and reason with you (specifically you) is pointless and only results in 400+ page-long threads of autistic sputtering.

GIFs are a far better approach.

Tally ho!

In other words: "Anybody who disagrees with me is 'autistic'. I am articulate by my own admission, and my gif posting is proof of that. When I re-post my opinion dozens of times, that is OK. Only people I dislike cannot do that".

It is sad that you are so unable to provide any evidence for your claims, you have to resort to lying about other posters to try and get people to agree with you.

Please stop posting this nonsense. It is off-topic, and simply continues to prove you are a troll.

I will be happy to discuss the topic at hand, if you ever decide to get back to it. I won't hold my breath. Gif incoming, probably.

Troxx · #4 08-09-2023, 12:24 AM

My scrub alt (60 paladin):

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromir

Not great, but when I played actively my efforts (and dkp) were squarely focused on my warrior. I do wish I had spent some of my banked dkp on a Narandi helm for him before I stepped away from active play and Azure Guard disbanded.

I can’t honestly remember what I put his starting points into. Half elf paladins have a starting strength of 80. What I do know is that, geared as he is, I can hit the strength cap with any combination of 2 of the following 3 buffs:

Maniacal strength
Focus
Big Yaulp

With any buff less than focus/maniacal, I won’t hit that cap. I can Yaulp myself up over 200 self buffed. Having max strength increases your attack as well as the other damage scaling perks of strength up to the cap.

The OP, unless they become a dedicated raider, will likely be looking at a magelo profile similar to mine (minus the weapon) as the glass ceiling. He won’t be capping stamina ever. He might get lucky to cap his strength with str/focus stack from a 60 shaman - and always be floating lower than that without. Unless he raids and raids hard, the OP has no risk of overcapping his strength buffed in groups.

Strength does provide fairly linear gains up to the cap.

Extra mana is always cool but most knights will spend 99.9% of their active playtime hovering at some percentage of mana below 100% - teetering up and down depending on innate mana regen (FT items and buffs) and however much time they can manage to pop a squat to get in a few med ticks before the next engage. Even soloing, never really meditate all the way up to 100%. Even with my pathetic mana pool it just isn’t necessary.

Jimjam · #5 08-09-2023, 01:51 AM

Dsm your iksar sk is littered with equipment it can’t use.

DeathsSilkyMist · #6 08-09-2023, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dsm your iksar sk is littered with equipment it can’t use.

Good catch. I'll adjust it. There are plenty of options.

EDIT: Fixed!

Lune · #7 08-09-2023, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the extra STR doesn't provide enough DPS to kill mobs fast enough to matter, then your whole argument falls flat.

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

Quote:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To do the math correctly, you need to include the bag weight.

That is arbitrary. If I'm showing you how easy it is to get encumbered and undershoot my own number, that only adds to my point. Saying my point doesn't stand because I didn't demonstrate the heaviness of FS weapons enough is illogical. Your thinking is incredibly rigid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would love to see you post a Magelo if you think you have a better gear setup. In the Velious era, a lot of items have STR on them. I already fixed the issues with the non-Iksar gear https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK . Thank you JimJam for pointing it out! Remember that there are only 20 starting stat points, so the difference is 20 STR at best. You could also swap out Cloak of the Malestrom for something like https://wiki.project1999.com/Hooded_Black_Cloak if you were worried about weight. That would save you 17.5 stone.

No, you were specifically aiming for strength items to bring that strength up to prove a point. Your original magelo had hammerhead helm, hero bracers and shit. Few of those items are velious items or something you would select if you weren't going for strength. Buddy, if strength is so good you need to specifically gear for it, maybe put some points in it. Just a straight up strength gear-out, to make up for the terrible INT starting point allocation.

DeathsSilkyMist · #8 08-09-2023, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage.

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

There are two quick problems with all this:
1. The difference in starting stats is 20 points. I am not sure why you are using 50 points for your DPS calculations.

2. 20% max hits is probably not accurate, that sounds high. I'll double check some logs tomorrow to get a better number.

Quote:

That is arbitrary. If I'm showing you how easy it is to get encumbered and undershoot my own number, that only adds to my point. Saying my point doesn't stand because I didn't demonstrate the heaviness of FS weapons enough is illogical. Your thinking is incredibly rigid.

I am not sure why you are fixating on my bag weight comment while ignoring all of the other issues. Your point doesn't stand because you are ignoring other cheap weight reduction bags, you don't mention the increase in overweight carry capacity, and you are assuming 50 bags slots for FS weapons, when an SK will probably have less than 50 available.

Quote:

No, you were specifically aiming for strength items to bring that strength up to prove a point. Your original magelo had hammerhead helm, hero bracers and shit. Few of those items are velious items or something you would select if you weren't going for strength. Buddy, if strength is so good you need to specifically gear for it, maybe put some points in it. Just a straight up strength gear-out, to make up for the terrible INT starting point allocation.

You need to show what gear you think would replace the gear in my Magelo. Again, the difference in starting stats is 20 points. Thick Banded Belt is 15/20 missing STR, and belt slot isn't a high stat slot for low end gear. Good luck finding a cheap +15 STA or +15 INT item.

Lune · #9 08-09-2023, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are two quick problems with all this:
1. The difference in starting stats is 20 points. I am not sure why you are using 50 points for your DPS calculations.

2. 20% max hits is probably not accurate, that sounds high. I'll double check some logs tomorrow to get a better number.

1. Because i'm not talking starting stats, clearly; no iksar can reach 150. I'm talking geared. The per point value of strength is similar in both cases.

2. It doesn't need to be accurate to illustrate the power of strength compared to int. Run it with 10%, halving the final numbers, and it still beats INT. Hell, run it with 5% and it still beats int. The kobold dies slower but the difference is similar, and the kobold does more damage to you, meaning a greater burden for INT/lifetaps.

3. I thought you wanted to talk facts. Don't like my numbers? Provide better ones.

DeathsSilkyMist · #10 08-09-2023, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Because i'm not talking starting stats, clearly; no iksar can reach 150. I'm talking geared.

2. It doesn't need to be accurate to illustrate the power of strength compared to int. Run it with 10%, halving the final numbers, and it still beats INT. Hell, run it with 5% and it still beats int. The kobold dies slower but the difference is similar, and the kobold does more damage to you, meaning a greater burden for INT/lifetaps.

3. I thought you wanted to talk facts. Don't like my numbers? Provide better ones.

1. This thread is about starting stats. So the question is: 20 STR, 20 STA, or 20 INT? Inflating the STR number to 50 is off topic.

2. Yes, the numbers need to be accurate. You cannot simply claim 50 STR is giving you X DPS you pulled out of thin air.

3. I do want to talk about facts. The random numbers you provided are not facts. You are making the claim. You need to provide the evidence.