monk ratios, primary and offhand choices

[Snaggles]

Btw, only like 1% of that was directed to Rip but my math agrees with his.

The rest was added because I blab a lot and am too lazy to multi-quote. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

way too much discussion here. epic/sos & tstaff is fine until bo staff or better. it's comical how good tstaff is for a kc wep

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

way too much discussion here. epic/sos & tstaff is fine until bo staff or better. it's comical how good tstaff is for a kc wep

The issue is that the tstaff with the 2h changes while once was better than epic/SoS is now in a different solar system. If people have raid DW monk weapons that’s one thing but even a generic Peacebringer smashes all other DW EC combos by a mile.

The monk discussions are always amusing. There are a few weapons which clearly are the best but people try to “do their own build”. If you don’t have spells and have to rely on a superior combat table, and ignore stuff like ratios and math, you are going to do horrible dps. And if you are a low dps monk with some kind of angle on the game, God help you and anyone stuck in that awkward elevator ride who has to hear about it.

Or whatever, just do your own thing and get outparsed by rangers and knights. That won’t sting at all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue is that the tstaff with the 2h changes while once was better than epic/SoS is now in a different solar system. If people have raid DW monk weapons that’s one thing but even a generic Peacebringer smashes all other DW EC combos by a mile.

The monk discussions are always amusing. There are a few weapons which clearly are the best but people try to “do their own build”. If you don’t have spells and have to rely on a superior combat table, and ignore stuff like ratios and math, you are going to do horrible dps. And if you are a low dps monk with some kind of angle on the game, God help you and anyone stuck in that awkward elevator ride who has to hear about it.

Or whatever, just do your own thing and get outparsed by rangers and knights. That won’t sting at all.

I do agree that many DW combos will get outclassed by 2h weapons post damage table change. Most 1h weapons aren't amazing, and monks specifically get some cheap, high ratio 2handers as well. The last round of discussions was talking about Fist of Nature specifically, which I think is the second best 1h ratio weapon in the game behind gharns (not including Knight 1h weapons of course).

Fist of Nature + Gharns can outperform a primal 2hb on paper at least, so there are indeed some DW combos that will outclass most 2h weapons. Obviously Abashi should still win out, as it is the highest ratio weapon in the game as far as I am aware.

As far as I know no ones really arguing using SoS + Epic Fist or Addy Club in most fights if you have a better option, as the ratios on those 1h weapons aren't in the same ballpark as Fist of Natue.

The consistency of DW 1h weapons do give you better odds of hitting their average damage compared to a 2h weapon in a single fight. You want to parse and/or math out the weapons you are comparing. If the DW 1h weapons average damage is close to the 2h weapon average damage, the DW 1h weapons will probably be the better choice for a single target high AC fight. Getting below average damage output for your 2h weapon on an important raid target isn't fun.

[Snaggles]

I don’t think Crede was advocating for that combo as equivalent to a Tstaff. Just a jumping off point really.

This is a game of incremental gains. You use whatever is best. It’s just that for most players at this point in the timeline will get better results from a 2h. Gozzrem drops an all/all 50/43 2hb. Facesmasher and Melheldin too. That’s a helluva bar to get past for a normal player.

[Troxx]

Important raid targets are rarely brief enough fights that wild variance will exist.

An 18 man Trak burn that’s takes 10 seconds? Sure a bad run luck might be present … but the fight was over so quick it didn’t matter.

Citing AoW as an example is silly though. Even with multiple charm pets and 80-100+ players … that fight is going to be long enough that the risk of nothing but bad luck is statistically really, really (REALLY) improbable.

Point is simply that no matter how you slice it, the mantra of fast weapons for the damage bonus was turned on its head. 2handers now deal more damage bonus per unit time than fast weapons.

At 60 a 2handed weapon with a delay of 30 (tstaff) for example will have a chance to apply 29 damage bonus per hit at an interval of 3 seconds (1.5 seconds at max haste).

You would need a 1hander with a starting delay of 11 (before haste) to have greater dmg bonus potential. A delay of 12 isn’t fast enough.

No such weapon exists.

Admittedly the delay of 30 is quite literally THE sweet spot. Let’s use another example.

For a 2handed weapon with a delay of 40 (IFS) … it’s 34 dmg per 4 seconds.

You would need a 1 hander (main hand) with a delay of 13 to have mathematical parity with the dmg bonus potential of the IFS and a delay of 12 to beat it.

No such weapons exist.

This is why dual wielding for monks is so generally lame at this point. There has to be a massive (BiS endgame dual wield setups) ratio advantage to compete (beat) with 38/40 or 29/30 EC monk 2hander. At that point they only win via massive ratio superiority. If you have access to those weapons, you also have access to ToV or VP 2handers (and probably many for cheaper dkp) with ratios that far outclass the EC gear.

The higher the ac, the more relative importance the portion of your damage from damage bonus.

Math is math. It really isn’t complicated.

[Troxx]

Double post sorry

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You would need a 1hander with a starting delay of 11 (before haste) to have greater dmg bonus potential. A delay of 12 isn’t fast enough.

No such weapon exists.

My friend, have you considered red?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You would need a 1 hander (main hand) with a delay of 13 to have mathematical parity with the dmg bonus potential of the IFS and a delay of 12 to beat it.

No such weapons exist.

You don't need mathematical parity on damage bonus, you just need to math out which set of weapons does more damage.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...4&postcount=86

People can read this post to see that a FoN + Gharns should out DPS a Primal 2hb.

As I said before, just math out both weapons and/or parse them. If they are close, the dual wield combo is going to be more consistent.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Math is math. It really isn’t complicated.

Indeed. You should actually use math sometimes to support your positions. As you say, it isn't complicated.

We can use the linked post above to check TStaff's potential damage output:

46 weapon damage from the 2h in the linked post above divided by 29 weapon damage from TStaff is 1.58. The 221 max damage from the weapon example in the linked post above divided by 1.58 is 139.87.

(9 + 139.87) / 2 = 74.4 x 0.5 = 37.2 + 29 damage bonus = 66.2 damage

66.2 damage x 30 hits = 1986 damage compared to 2072 damage at least from FoN + Gharns. That damage value is a bit lower due to gharns having a slightly better ratio. I am also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, for the 2072 number, but it sounds like Monks have a higher dual wield chance than 50%. That would further increase the 2072 damage if true.

As you can see, you don't need a 1h weapon with a delay of 12 to out DPS a TStaff.

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We can use the linked post above to check TStaff's potential damage output:

46 weapon damage from the 2h in the linked post above divided by 29 weapon damage from TStaff is 1.58. The 221 max damage from the weapon example in the linked post above divided by 1.58 is 139.87.

(9 + 139.87) / 2 = 74.4 x 0.5 = 37.2 + 29 damage bonus = 66.2 damage

66.2 damage x 30 hits = 1986 damage compared to 2072 damage at least from FoN + Gharns. That damage value is a bit lower due to gharns having a slightly better ratio. I am also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, for the 2072 number, but it sounds like Monks have a higher dual wield chance than 50%. That would further increase the 2072 damage if true.

As you can see, you don't need a 1h weapon with a delay of 12 to out DPS a TStaff.

Assuming the numbers check out, a 2hb tstaff is 1,986 damage vs. Tunare + Vulak weapons are 2,072 damage ignoring procs on both ends and stats you gain. A 50k 2hb from KC vs two incredibly hard to obtain BIS does 4.3% more damage? I'm assuming that doesn't even factor in 2HB weaving? As a new monk player, unless I'm the 1%, I'm basically keeping my 2HB for the vast majority of fights because it'll be more DPS? That just sounds incredibly odd.