monk ratios, primary and offhand choices

[Cecily]

RFS sounded like so much fun to level with that I tried to buy one and made a new monk before I decided against spending 100k on a temporary weapon for a ridiculously easy to level class.
CoF/Fungi/T-staff isn't optimal, but I used that from level 1 and burned through the levels np.

[sammoHung]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

RFS sounded like so much fun to level with that I tried to buy one and made a new monk before I decided against spending 100k on a temporary weapon for a ridiculously easy to level class.
CoF/Fungi/T-staff isn't optimal, but I used that from level 1 and burned through the levels np.

It's really good at 50+ too, but the T Staff is much better 50+...

But that RFS 1-50 is a buzzsaw. No single mob blue con or under ever gave me any trouble 1-50 with that thing.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

RFS sounded like so much fun to level with that I tried to buy one and made a new monk before I decided against spending 100k on a temporary weapon for a ridiculously easy to level class.

Yea but god damn it was fun

Plus it's an item that keeps value well, wish I still had it

[Raralith]

Great info on the thread especially about low vs. high AC raid targets. I'm reviewing the monk weapon DPS spreadsheet, and I'm trying to figure out what my next weapons goals are for raiding so I wanted to get some thoughts from the knowledgeable people here.

I'm currently using T-staff for 2HB OR epic fist + Scepter of Mastery depending on target. I've got very sparse access to ToV monk weapons (no VP) so it's hard for me to get Facesmasher, Shovel of the Harvest, Fist of Lightning, Baton of Flame, or Wurmscale Fistwraps but if one becomes available I'll be more then happy to spend DKP on it. What I do have right now though is plat so I'm considering buying a ST key and loot rights for Priceless Velium Fistwraps and an Essence Mace. From a min/max perspective and judging from this thread, I'm hesitant to buy these because 1) I'll more then likely be using a 2HB for most raid targets, and 2) the DPS increase comparing these two relative to epic fists on the primarily are 13% and 17% more, respectively, for the cost of ~450k plat. Wurmscale Fistwraps give a 20% DPS increase, and Baton of Flame 24% excluding proc. So, my question is, just continue using the epic fists + SoM when not using 2HB and just wait patiently for better NTOV 1HB/fists OR spend the 450k for ST gear is worth it (assuming I dont have unlimited plat and that's everything I have)?

[WarpathEQ]

$450k is probably an understatement, atleast on green to get all of that. Seems like the Key/prismatic scale is $500k alone, haven't seen a price on the priceless velium.

I personally would just be patient and wait for an NToV drop, even if you don't have many opportunities if that's your sole focus pretty high chance you get it when it drops.

If you don't have beads yet then 100% save your cash, beads are way more useful than any weapon upgrades.

[Goregasmic]

What's the reason behind 2hb sucking on high AC targets? You often get low damage hits so the extra delay is a waste? Outside of high end raiding are those targets common?

Also someone mentionned little is known about the 2h bonus formulas. How accurate are the damage calculators like this one out there? I understand nothing beats a parse but one can only parse if they already own the coveted weapon.

As for OP, if it wasnt clear enough, 2HB win over 1HB until you're in your high 40s because the damage bonus only starts kicking in significantly at that point. Even then dual wield means your offhand will still miss a fair bit so a very good 2hb can still win especially if you consider ripostes/damage shields/hate generated.

Offhand has no damage bonus so ratio always wins. As for main hand, speed often rules as faster hitting weapons mean taking advantage of the damage bonus on each hit more often, meaning faster weapon can often outdamage slower weapons with a better ratio to a certain point.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's the reason behind 2hb sucking on high AC targets?

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

When looking at the normal distribution (assuming a pure 50% hit rate on average), you would be correct that some 2h weapons could outperform 1h weapons on high AC targets. At 100% haste the 11/18 would have 9 delay, and the 29/30 would have 15 delay. 9 divided by 15 is 0.6. For every 100 swings of the 9 delay 1h weapon, you'd get 60 swings out of the 2h weapon. When factoring in a 50% chance to dual wield, that would be 150 1h swings for every 60 2h swings.

(150 1h swings × 0.5 hit rate) x 11 damage bonus = 825 damage

(60 2h swings x 0.5 hit rate) x 29 damage bonus = 870 damage

The catch is fights with high AC targets are usually raid mobs you fight once in a while (that you don't want to lose), instead of XP mobs you are constantly killing. This means you want to look at how an individual fight could play out, rather than a large number of fights (the normal distribution).

1h weapons give you a lot more individual chances to hit in a single fight.

If you hit 40% of the time on the first 60 swings:

(60 1h swings x 0.4 hit rate) × 11 damage bonus = 264 damage

(60 2h swings x 0.4 hit rate) x 29 damage bonus = 696 damage.

If you hit 60% of the time on the next 60 swings:

(60 1h swings x 0.6 hit rate) × 11 damage bonus = 396 damage

0 2h swings = 0 damage

If you hit 50% of the time on the next 30 swings:

(30 1h swings x 0.5 hit rate) x 11 damage bonus = 165 damage

0 2h swings = 0 damage

1h damage total over 150 swings: 825 damage

2h damage total over 60 swings: 696 damage

After you've fought thousands of a specific raid target, you may see that the data shows some 2h weapons would deal higher damage on average. But the goal of each individual raid target fight is to kill it asap. So you are banking on the idea that you will outperform the 2h weapon in that individual fight.

The same concept applies to how much damage each individual hit does. The 1h weapon has more opportunities to randomly roll higher damage-wise. An unlucky streak of low damage 2h rolls will lower your damage in an individual fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

Going back to this original example, I realized that the 11/18 number got stuck in my head for Fist of Nature. I see that Vivitron was just using the damage bonus, but it threw me off. It's a 15/18 weapon. I'll go back to my previous example:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll use the damage range from my SK as a quick example. His 46/44 ratio weapon does 46-258 damage self buffed, with the 37 damage bonus. This means the damage roll range is 9-221 (the part affected by AC).

For argument's sake, we will say AoW reduces your damage rolls by half on average.

This means my average damage per hit on the 2h weapon is (9 + 221) / 2 = 115 × 0.5 = 57.5 + 37 = 94.5 damage.

At 100% haste you have 22 delay on a 46/44 weapon. You have 9 delay on an 15/18 weapon. 9 delay divided by 22 is 0.41. So you'd get 41 swings per 150 swings of the 15/18 weapons when including dual wield.

94.5 damage x 20.5 hits = 1937.25 total damage.

Using a Fist of Nature + Gharns would look more like this:

46 weapon damage from the 2h divided by 15 weapon damage from FoN is 3.06. The 221 max damage from the above weapon example divided by 3.06 is an estimated 72.2 as the max damage.

(9 + 72.2) / 2 = 40.61 x 0.5 = 20.3 damage without the damage bonus.

20.3 damage x 75 hits = 1522.5 damage + (11 bonus damage × 50 hits) = 2072.5 total damage.

This means a FoN + Gharns should out DPS a primal 2hb and a 29/30 TStaff. The 1h weapons will be more consistent to boot due to having more than double the swings. If Monks get 75% dual wields instead of 50%, the damage value increases further. Gharns has a slightly better ratio than FoN as well.

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by Raralith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've got very sparse access to ToV monk weapons (no VP) so it's hard for me to get Facesmasher, Shovel of the Harvest, Fist of Lightning, Baton of Flame, or Wurmscale Fistwraps but if one becomes available I'll be more then happy to spend DKP on it. What I do have right now though is plat...

If you want raid gear, I suggest joining a raid guild.