monk ratios, primary and offhand choices - Page 10

Goregasmic · #1 11-17-2024, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, but I believe Monks have a higher dual wield chance than that.

Formula is (char level + dw skill)/base

No one knows the real base number and if they're the same for everybody apparently, according to the DW wiki page.

Base 400 means 22% miss chance but base 600 is 52%.

Jimjam · #2 11-17-2024, 05:20 PM

Whats the double attack chance on the offhand? I know it is zero for a long time. Does it just jump up to full (ie same as primary?) after 150 skill or does it creep up?

DeathsSilkyMist · #3 11-17-2024, 06:21 PM

Did a quick test with my Monk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVkVNorTzIQ . He is only 52, so damage bonuses will be different between level 52 and level 60. Damage bonuses can be found here: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

I only used my 34% worn haste. I didn't click my Epic to ensure I didn't have a point in the fight where the spell haste wore off, which could offset the DPS. I did 3 fights for each test. I also didn't use any combat abilities like Flying Kick.

I picked the two Giants under the FM Fort because they are level 50, and my Monk is level 52. This should be a better representation of a higher than average AC fight, compared to my Monk fighting a mob who's level is in the mid 40s. From my experience I believe these Giants have a bit higher AC than normal too, but could be wrong. My Dual Wield Skill Level is 252.

First test is Epic Fist Main Hand + Stave of Shielding Offhand:

59 seconds + 54 seconds + 50 seconds

4999 damage 163 seconds = 30.67 DPS

Second test is Imbued Fighters Staff. I was unequipping it to get Epic Fist Dual Wield hits in-between swings:

46 seconds + 58 seconds + 51 seconds = 155 seconds

4883 damage over 155 seconds = 31.5 DPS

The DPS is basically identical between Epic Fist + SoS and Imbued Fighters Staff + Punches. 30.66 DPS vs 31.5 DPS at level 52. The total damage from the 1h weapons was a bit higher too. Obviously this is because the damage bonus on 2h weapons at level 52 is lower than level 60, but remember that OP is currently level 16.

This is why I keep saying people need to math things out and/or do parsing. Sometimes people over generalize. Obviously 2h weapons got a big boost, but that doesn't mean that they are always better at all times, or always leagues ahead of their 1 handed Dual Wield counterparts.

When looking at Dual Wield chance, I had 209 punches vs 101 crushes in the 1h test, so that is a 48% chance to dual wield. For the 2h weapon I had 63 punches vs 92 crushes, which is a 68% chance to Dual Wield. This assumes I never made any errors when unequipping the 2h weapon. Given the average between 48 and 68 is 58, and double attack is included in these numbers, Dual Wield Chance seems to still be closer to 50%. Perhaps the higher delay on the Stave of Shielding was blocking some extra Dual Wield swings, especially since I wasn't using Epic haste.

Just to defend "napkin" math, we can do the math as well with the given data:

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 10
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 44
Epic Fist Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (10 + 44) / 2 = 27

209 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 104 hits

(27 * 104) = 2808 Damage

Stave of Shielding Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 2
Stave of Shielding Maximum Damage (Off Hand) = 66
Stave of Shielding Average Damage (Off Hand) = (66 + 2) / 2 = 34

101 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 50 hits

34 * 50 = 1700 Damage

2808 + 1700 = 4508 Average Damage compared to 4999 Actual Damage.

============

Imbued Fighters Staff Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 22
Imbued Fighters Staff Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 169
Imbued Fighters Staff Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (169 + 22) / 2 = 95.5

92 Swings * 0.5 hit rate = 46 hits

95.5 * 46 = 4393 Damage

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 1
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Off Hand) = 31
Epic Fist Average Damage (Off Hand) = (1 + 31) / 2 = 16

63 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 31 hits

16 * 31 = 496 Damage

4393 + 496 = 4889 Damage compared to 4883 Actual Damage.

In this scenario I did above average damage with the 1h Dual Wield weapons. This is more likely to occur in a short period, due to the larger number of swings Dual Wield gets. The 2h weapon performed at basically the average. This is due to what I mentioned in an earlier post. The Dual Wield weapons are getting 2x the swings of the 2h Weapon + Punches. If every 150 swings is one coin toss (Tails = Below Average, Heads = Above Average), you'll get the following possibilities:

1h Dual Wield Weapons:

Tails + Tails = Below Average DPS
Tails + Heads = Average DPS
Heads + Tails = Average DPS
Heads + Heads = Above Average DPS

2h Weapons:

Tails = Below Average DPS
Heads = Above Average DPS

I got Heads + Heads on the 1h Dual Wield Weapons, and Tails on the 2h Weapon, as I was just below Average. In this specific scenario, Below Average was very close to the average, but it could have been worse. This is something to consider when determining which weapon set you want to use when fighting a single target raid mob. Over hundreds of fights the average will even out of course, but you'll only be fighting 1 AoW every 7 days, assuming you raid every week.

=================

Let's project these weapons to level 60 using the level 60 damage bonuses:

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 12
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 46
Epic Fist Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (10 + 44) / 2 = 29

209 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 104 hits

(29 * 104) = 3016 Damage

Stave of Shielding Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 2
Stave of Shielding Maximum Damage (Off Hand) = 66
Stave of Shielding Average Damage (Off Hand) = (66 + 2) / 2 = 34

101 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 50 hits

34 * 50 = 1700 Damage

3016 + 1700 = 4716 Average Damage

=========

Imbued Fighters Staff Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 38
Imbued Fighters Staff Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 185
Imbued Fighters Staff Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (185 + 38) / 2 = 111.5

92 Swings * 0.5 hit rate = 46 hits

111.5 * 46 = 5,129 Damage

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 1
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Off Hand) = 31
Epic Fist Average Damage (Off Hand) = (1 + 31) / 2 = 16

63 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 31 hits

16 * 31 = 496 Damage

5,129 + 496 = 5625 Average Damage

At level 60 the gap between Imbued Fighters Staff and Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding obviously increases due to the increase in the damage bonus. If you are not switching out Imbued Fighters Staff every swing due to laziness (many people do not switch out their 2h weapon every swing), the Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding would still do basically equal damage to Imbued Fighters staff in the same video example with a level 60 Monk.

Troxx · #4 11-17-2024, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are not switching out Imbued Fighters Staff every swing due to laziness .... the Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding would still do basically equal damage to Imbued Fighters staff.

Lol, no. Lazy ass autoattacking without going for the offhand punch both IFS and Tstaff will leave epic + X in the dust at 60. Does your napkin math include the fact that monks at level 60 will triple attack with their primary hand?

Maybe finish leveling your monk to 60 and give it a whirl. Actually parse it maybe?

The second the 2h dmg bonus change went live I dumped my epic fist within the first few hours of parsing. Prior to the patch they were very similar dps. After the patch it was night/day different.

DeathsSilkyMist · #5 11-17-2024, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol, no. Lazy ass autoattacking without going for the offhand punch both IFS and Tstaff will leave epic + X in the dust at 60. Does your napkin math include the fact that monks at level 60 will triple attack with their primary hand?

Maybe finish leveling your monk to 60 and give it a whirl. Actually parse it maybe?

The second the 2h dmg bonus change went live I dumped my epic fist within the first few hours of parsing. Prior to the patch they were very similar dps. After the patch it was night/day different.

My previous post was a parse + math, and the data shows I am correct. Clearly you didn't read it, as usual.

You have nothing to show right now, so your opinion is baseless. Why don't you provide those parses since you did them already?

bcbrown · #6 11-18-2024, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4999 damage over 163 seconds = 30.67
4883 damage over 155 seconds = 31.5 DPS

Which is better?

DeathsSilkyMist · #7 11-18-2024, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which is better?

4999 damage, the mob is closer to being dead. Ill take the extra damage over the slight DPS variance.

DeathsSilkyMist · #8 11-18-2024, 10:18 PM

I always find it amazing that posters like Bcbrown and Troxx can never concede any ground, even when the evidence is factually not in their favor. They just have to keep spamming and dodging because being wrong is unthinkable.

It shouldn't be hard for Bcbrown and Troxx to say "Epic Fist + SoS is factually better than IFS when you don't fist weave on a 50% hit chance average for both weapons at level 52. We should let other players know about this kind of nuance so they can play better".

Jimjam · #9 11-18-2024, 02:45 AM

According to Torven’s research on mob avoidance and mitigation, common NPCs cap out at about 200 mitigation from level 50, whereas the harder velious boss mobs have significant ac (we’re talking AoW 900, Vulak 1000). I make the assumption p99 echos these findings, if not matches them perfectly.

While your parse against the giants is very useful to do a comparison for weapons against xp mobs (and according to Torven should be applicable for xp mobs all the way to 60 thanks to that mitigation cap of 200), I don’t believe it has much generalisability for the harder bosses, which seems to be a focus of the current tangent of discussion.

Jimjam · #10 11-18-2024, 07:33 AM

Just as a follow up to my previous post, I do want to point out I'm making a hell of an assumption that the p99 mitigation values on mobs are close to classic / Torven's derived values. I admit when theoryquesting, I tend to come from a position of 'how p99 should be' not 'how p99 actually plays out' - there is often a big discrepency between these positions.