Should I Make a Human, Dark Elf or Gnome for Cleric?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you don't need it, then alternate strategies work just as well. So it's a preference thing, rather than something that is granting you new possibilities. That is my point. I have no problem if you prefer using snare neck. That doesn't mean it is superior, saves mana, etc.

Ice Giants are not difficult at all, you do not need snare neck to do that camp efficiently.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you don't need it, then alternate strategies work just as well. So it's a preference thing, rather than something that is granting you new possibilities. That is my point. I have no problem if you prefer using snare neck. That doesn't mean it is superior, saves mana, etc.

Ice Giants are not difficult at all, you do not need snare neck to do that camp efficiently.

I don't think you can dismiss a camp just because it's easy. That's just trying to talk down the point.

Besides which, alternate strategies won't work just as well. Very annoying having to deal with gate/cheal because instead of snaring it you rooted it or fought it close to an ally. Especially against unstunnable clerics. Often you'll need to clear more incidental mobs to make your fight area safe too if not using snare.

I gave a real example where we would have been better off with snare (fighting giant clerics or huge hp mobs at King Tormax's house).

[Danth]

I agree that "need" is the wrong baseline for this discussion since none of the cleric racial bonuses are necessary by definition--all clerics can perform their jobs. I also agree that snare is a nice quality of life item to have on occasion. Sure you can live without it. So what? There are many things I can live without in-game but which are nice to have. What are you going to take in its place? Clerics can live without tinkering, they can live without sneak, they can live without paineel quest items....it's all icing and all of it has relative value for various purposes.

Nobody who has a melee wants to be chasing full-speed runners to finish them off, not with P99's ever-crabby hitboxes. That's a miserable life. Hence why the snare neck sees much discussion for use in a cleric-based duo with a melee player when they don't otherwise have snare. It also opens up limited fear-kiting for such a duo. While not strictly necessary--the wife and I used to duo lower guk with our paladin/cleric duo w/o a snare, and we managed--it does open up nice quality of life and some additional options. Maybe it's not godly, but it's not junk, either, at least not to that specific sub-set of players who like to operate in that type of duo.

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Shamwowi, how often do you use Clinging on your shadowknight? I use it frequently on mine. Cascading is the one I seldom use due to the immense mana cost. Otherwise clinging, engulfing, and dooming all see fairly regular use. It isn't uncommon that I might have two of them on the spellbar at once.

Danth

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also p99 very non classic, sowed runners don't flee fast enough at low hp.

I didn't want to bring up how gimped and generally less threatening runners are on P99, and always have been, because that's something of a different discussion. We can only play the game that's before us, perfect emulation or not, and it's best to make recommendations for the game which exists rather than for changes that may or may not ever be implemented.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you don't understand how missing one med tick is superior mana efficiency to having to cast the extra pet summon or heal to tank an additional 20% of an Ice Giant's health bar, I don't know what to tell you.

I assume that's the cleric summon pet?

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I assume that's the cleric summon pet?

No, I was making reference to my previous example when I used the snare neck heavily while boxing a Mage/Cleric duo on TAKP, specifically fighting Ice Giants in Everfrost.

DSM dismissed this as an easy camp that didn't require snare, which is true if you're simply farming them as an Epic Shaman or a 50+ Mage/Necro. But in my case I was leveling on the giants with a 44 Mage pet, which leaves much less room for error and requires Cleric heals to sustain. Forcing the pet to tank the extra 20% of each giant's health bar would have required an additional heal or pet summon for each kill, and letting the giant flee without snare would have risked it pathing into the other giant spawn, or running out of the castle entirely, and then I have to go chase down the corpse while I'm already substantially overweight from Fine steel loot and gold/plat.

It's just an example where the snare neck proved extremely useful and convenient.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree that "need" is the wrong baseline for this discussion since none of the cleric racial bonuses are necessary by definition--all clerics can perform their jobs. I also agree that snare is a nice quality of life item to have on occasion. Sure you can live without it. So what? There are many things I can live without in-game but which are nice to have. What are you going to take in its place? Clerics can live without tinkering, they can live without sneak, they can live without paineel quest items....it's all icing and all of it has relative value for various purposes.

Nobody who has a melee wants to be chasing full-speed runners to finish them off, not with P99's ever-crabby hitboxes. That's a miserable life. Hence why the snare neck sees much discussion for use in a cleric-based duo with a melee player when they don't otherwise have snare. It also opens up limited fear-kiting for such a duo. While not strictly necessary--the wife and I used to duo lower guk with our paladin/cleric duo w/o a snare, and we managed--it does open up nice quality of life and some additional options. Maybe it's not godly, but it's not junk, either, at least not to that specific sub-set of players who like to operate in that type of duo.

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Shamwowi, how often do you use Clinging on your shadowknight? I use it frequently on mine. Cascading is the one I seldom use due to the immense mana cost. Otherwise clinging, engulfing, and dooming all see fairly regular use. It isn't uncommon that I might have two of them on the spellbar at once.

Danth

That has been my whole argument, you don't need it, so I wouldn't pick a race just for it. Snare Neck isn't necessary, and I would need to see data to believe it is consistently saving a Cleric mana on runners. In most cases you can deal with them just fine, and you may not even need to root the mob. It's generally a strategy issue, not a lack of snare issue.

You did bring up Dragon Necropolis in another discussion when referring to fighting Gating mobs that you cannot easily fight on their spawn point. I will test that out at some point to see if Snare Neck would be worth it there, or if you could indeed just find their spawn points.

Again, I do have the snare neck on my Cleric. I enjoy using it when soloing, as I can fear kite living mobs with it to some degree. But honestly the snare is so bad I have been wishing for JBoots to keep up with the mob while it is running at over 50% health hehe. I don't play that toon enough to justify the Jboots.

I never use Clinging Darkness on my SK. It's just too bad for effective use. Besides, with Blood Ember Gauntlets you get Engulfing Darkness for free. I use Dooming Darkness when the runway is tight and I need as little movement as possible, otherwise I click my Blood Ember Gauntlets.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That has been my whole argument, you don't need it, so I wouldn't pick a race just for it.

I wouldn't either, as said above, so we've been in agreement on that point all along.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You did bring up Dragon Necropolis in another discussion when referring to fighting Gating mobs that you cannot easily fight on their spawn point. I will test that out at some point to see if Snare Neck would be worth it there, or if you could indeed just find their spawn points..

"Finding" the spawn points there is easy. I can draw you a picture if you like (actually I did, Loramin posted it to the wiki I think). Fighting AT spawn, not so much, not in a low-damage duo at least. Have a good time there, it's a fun area that not a lot of people utilize. I like seeing folks go off the beaten path. I do suggest parking out a cleric nearby.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never use Clinging Darkness on my SK. It's just too bad for effective use. Besides, with Blood Ember Gauntlets you get Engulfing Darkness for free. I use Dooming Darkness when the runway is tight and I need as little movement as possible, otherwise I click my Blood Ember Gauntlets.

Hah, more than one way to skin a cat in EQ. Clinging's hate-generation usage aside, I (and other people) use it far too often to call it too bad to be effective as a snare. It's not wholly effective, to be sure (can't split with it), but it's good enough for a lot of the anti-flee'er jobs snare gets used for. I don't like swapping on the click gloves so I tend to use clinging when it suffices, which it usually does if stuff is dying within thirty seconds. Against something like west waste dragons that live awhile I'll use a longer-lasting snare for obvious reasons, right tool for the right job.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I was making reference to my previous example when I used the snare neck heavily while boxing a Mage/Cleric duo on TAKP, specifically fighting Ice Giants in Everfrost.

Thanks for clearing that up. That neck probably has more relative value for a cleric-based duo than a shaman-based duo. Slow means rooting and absorbing more melee time is no big deal for the shaman.

Danth

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for clearing that up. That neck probably has more relative value for a cleric-based duo than a shaman-based duo. Slow means rooting and absorbing more melee time is no big deal for the shaman.

I agree with you, especially 50+ when Shaman slow really ramps up.

The snare neck primarily shines on a Cleric duoing with a Mage, Enchanter or melee. A Shaman leveling up with a Monk duo partner would also get benefit out of it, but mostly just pre-level 50.

But even many Clerics won't have much use for the snare neck. If you're root/nuke soloing, XPing in full groups or raiding, you'll almost never miss the thing. But in certain niche applications (mostly when leveling as a duo, or in certain camps as highlighted in this thread) it can really be quite useful.

[Vexenu]

If you don't understand how missing one med tick is superior mana efficiency to having to cast the extra pet summon or heal to tank an additional 20% of an Ice Giant's health bar, I don't know what to tell you.

[Jimjam]

Snare is really good for removing SoW from NPCs in dungeons too. SoWed runners are a death sentence. Sure you can try rooting them, but that won't strip sow and if root breaks ... WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE they're gone.

Also p99 very non classic, sowed runners don't flee fast enough at low hp.