Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

whenever lora and DSM start battling its time to walk away

they're both good dudes but man...talk about beating a dead horse / arguing til the cows come home

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Winning's winning man. It does matter, no matter how big or small.

We all know how this game works, so all we have left is to debate the finer points.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At level 1 you start out with no gear, and as you level, your gear will not hit the caps. Even at 60 as you acquire Torpor (unless for some odd reason you delay it to max stats) you will also have less-than-max stats.

To hit caps with the kind of gear in the magelos posted (the realistic ones, not the "go for max stamina at the expense of all else" ones), as a non-raid Shaman, you need Torpor.

Once you have Torpor and farm some good gear for awhile, you could hit a stat cap! But even if you do, most people will, before too long, move on to another character ... or another game.

EQ is not WoW: you can't take your max-stat gear out to the battlegrounds to use it. Once you have all the toys, there's little else to do here (except raid).

So as I keep saying, for 95+% of a Shaman's life they're focused on getting the end game gear: they only have "endgame gear" at the end.

This is just not true. Let's say you have a character that starts out brand new, with no gear. From levels 25-55 you can kill guards. That typically averages out to 200pp per hour. If you do that for 100 hours you have 20000 self made PP while leveling. This is a very casual number too, this isn't hard core farming.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_...wBarbShamCheap This is an example of a character that is basically capped on STA with cheap gear. You could get all of that gear with 20k or less. I am not saying this is absolutely ideal gear, but it's cheap, and a lot of people just buy what they can as they go along. You have yet to provide a Magelo lol, so you clearly don't actually have any evidence for this. You could easily get this gear by level 40ish. This is with 25 points into WIS.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I should have elaborated: a non-raid shaman will ... for 95+% of his career ... not be getting max buffed. And even at 60 he will likely only rarely have max buffs (eg. before a big fight, but certainly not for an extended farm session).

I'd also note that one of the buffs filling up your slots is Primal Essence ... from an item a non-raid Shaman could never have.

Who is casting Avatar on themselves (and burning an emerald with each cast) in every fight in their daily play? This is an extreme case.

Again, in 95+% of their play, Shaman are not hitting max buffs. I'd honestly venture to guess 99+%: it's really something they'll only do for their very hardest fights. And again most people aren't just endlessly soloing Western Wastes dragons for months at a time after maxing out their gear: it gets old and they move on.

I do not have primal essence on. I don't have a Hammer of the Dragonborn, and I said so lol. You can hit max buff slots before 60 without Primal Essence and without Avatar. You don't know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

I have video proof of how a Shaman would fight a WW Dragon. Your weird theory crafting to try and be right is just nonsense. Come back with some video proof of your +25 STA saving you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Huh? We're talking Wisdom vs. Stamina, Mana vs. HP: I'm arguing HP is better, and you're arguing ... Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is better?

The point is simple. People are willing to reduce their maximum HP by 35 to equip a Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. Doing so does not sudden make them way easier to kill. You can sacrifice max HP and not notice it. It's the same thing with the +25 STA. It will not give you a noticeable increase in survivability. Like the +25 WIS, it has a very low, very rare chance to save you.

You've been proven wrong on all your points, and you have no evidence to provide. Please stop spreading bad information just because you are being stubborn.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is just not true. Let's say you have a character that starts out brand new, with no gear. From levels 25-55 you can kill guards. That typically averages out to 200pp per hour. If you do that for 100 hours you have 20000 self made PP while leveling. This is a very casual number too, this isn't hard core farming.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_...wBarbShamCheap This is an example of a character that is basically capped on STA with cheap gear. You could get all of that gear with 20k or less. I am not saying this is absolutely ideal gear, but it's cheap, and a lot of people just buy what they can as they go along. You have yet to provide a Magelo lol, so you clearly don't actually have any evidence for this. You could easily get this gear by level 40ish. This is with 25 points into WIS.

Have you ever heard of a "straw man argument"? You're making one without even realizing it.

Yes, if you only go for Stamina and nothing else you could hit the Stamina cap! Straw man achieved! But it's a straw man because it only works IF you buy a Feathered Leggings, Rune Crafter's Helm, Arctic Wyvern gear, etc. ... instead of getting a Ikky BP/Fungi/Vindi VP, a JBB, an instant-click refresh item, buff clickies, resists, wisdom, AC, etc. ... ie. if you don't get the much-more-useful gear options.

Real Shaman don't make it a goal to hit the Stamina cap while ignoring much more useful gear! So if you want to prove something, make a well-geared Shaman who hits the cap: no straw men.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do not have primal essence on. I don't have a Hammer of the Dragonborn, and I said so lol. You can hit max buff slots before 60 without Primal Essence and without Avatar. You don't know what you are talking about.

You said that in a second post after the first, so I didn't see it. But it still doesn't change the fact that normal Shaman, farming gear, aren't burning emeralds on Avatar or using Stamina-enhancing (or any other) consumables. When you're farming you're trying to make money, not waste it to increase your (mostly meaningless) max stats.

And, if you're not using that stuff ... you're not needing to hit the buff cap. Whatever your 15th (or even 13th or 14th) buff is, it's not doing much. If you really want to discuss it, post all 15 self-cast, non-consumable (and non-PE hammer) buffs you're casting, so we can discuss what the oh-so-valuable 15th buff is actually doing for you.

BTW, these next two quotes particularly amused me, because they're sort of DeathsSilkyMist arguing with himself:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have video proof of how a Shaman would fight a WW Dragon. Your weird theory crafting to try and be right is just nonsense. Come back with some video proof of your +25 STA saving you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DeathsSilkyMist: "+25 Wisdom has so much impact that you can see it in a single 15+ minute long fight (where you Torpor/Cannabalize, ie. exchange HP and Mana, constantly)."

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point is simple. People are willing to reduce their maximum HP by 35 to equip a Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. Doing so does not sudden make them way easier to kill. You can sacrifice max HP and not notice it. It's the same thing with the +25 STA. It will not give you a noticeable increase in survivability. Like the +25 WIS, it has a very low, very rare chance to save you.

Also DeathsSilkyMist: "stats don't matter" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, I agree with everyone else in this thread: THIS SHIT DOESN'T MATTER! In any given fight (but especially in one with 15+ minutes of Torporing and Cannabilizing) you will not see a difference from +25 Stamina or +25 Wisdom.

But, if we're theorycrafting about the aggregate impact +25 Wis/Sta will have, over the course of every fight the Shaman is in their entire life ... the HP from the Stamina is going to save their life more often than the Mana from Wisdom.


And then just one more DeathsSilkyMist vs. DeathsSilkyMist

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I simply posted some information that was helpful, and you responded with trolling.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've been proven wrong on all your points, and you have no evidence to provide. Please stop spreading bad information just because you are being stubborn.

Yup, that's you: all helpful info, no trolling.

(But, last I checked, normal/sane people can disagree about something, and discuss it rationally, without resorting to insults the moments their feelings got hurt because they started losing said rational discussion.)

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread is like watching shamans attrition soloing. Slow, steady, consistent but mainly slow.

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Winning's winning man. It does matter, no matter how big or small.

We all know how this game works, so all we have left is to debate the finer points.

I appreciate the defense Crede, but honestly, I think the others are right: at this point, there are no "winners" in this thread. Both DeathsSilkyMist and I are losers for participating this long [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But, I'm autistic enough to keep trying to disprove DeathsSilkyMist's falsehoods, so ... let's continue the loser-ness!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You provide no evidence for your claims, but me providing actual evidence is a straw man?

As it stands, you have no evidence, and you have been proven wrong via evidence. Please stop.

All you are doing is hurting the community and people reading this thread because you can't admit you are wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep moving the goal posts with your "normal non-raid Shaman" idea. Please provide a Magelo showing us EXACTLY what that is. I tried to make a Magelo of a Shaman who has very little money to spend on things like Fungi, JBB, etc. But you are now saying a "normal, non-raid shaman" is going to have Fungi, JBB, etc?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You provide no evidence for your claims, but me providing actual evidence is a straw man?

As it stands, you have no evidence, and you have been proven wrong via evidence. Please stop.

All you are doing is hurting the community and people reading this thread because you can't admit you are wrong.

Best way to win an argument: ignore everything your opponent says, and when you feel like you're losing don't respond to their points, just insult them and claim they have none [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep moving the goal posts with your "normal non-raid Shaman" idea. Please provide a Magelo showing us EXACTLY what that is. I tried to make a Magelo of a Shaman who has very little money to spend on things like Fungi, JBB, etc. But you are now saying a "normal, non-raid shaman" is going to have Fungi, JBB, etc?

I never "moved a goal post". Much earlier I said something like "show me a Magelo" .. to get someone to provide the rope to hang themselves with. That's not "moving a goal post" that's "spell out your argument so we can all see the flaw in it".

And the flaw of showing an unrealistic Stamina-only-focused Magelo is that it doesn't represent how real Shaman gear themselves, so it doesn't provide any "evidence" that real Shaman will hit the stat cap anytime except near the end of their career.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Best way to win an argument: ignore everything your opponent says, and just insult them and claim they have no evidence (after they've spent pages making a strong logical argument) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is precisely what you are doing[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never "moved a goal post". Much earlier I said something like "show me a Magelo" .. to get someone to provide the rope to hang themselves with. That's not "moving a goal post" that's "spell out your argument so we can all see the flaw in it".

And the flaw of showing an unrealistic Stamina-only-focused Magelo is that it doesn't represent how real Shaman gear themselves, so it doesn't provide any "evidence" that real Shaman will hit the stat cap anytime except near the end of their career.

Yes, you are moving goalposts because you have not provided a Magelo in kind[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You are using the tactic of saying "a normal shaman would do X", but whenever someone tries to define what a "normal shaman" is, you change what that definition is to match the current discussion.

So you need to provide us with your definition of a "normal, non raid shaman" so we can see what they would have, and what they could achieve. Otherwise you are just being disingenuous.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is precisely what you are doing[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]



Yes, you are moving goalposts because you have not provided a Magelo in kind[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You are using the tactic of saying "a normal shaman would do X", but whenever someone tries to define what a "normal shaman" is, you change what that definition is to match the current discussion.

So you need to provide us with your definition of a "normal, non raid shaman" so we can see what they would have, and what they could achieve. Otherwise you are just being disingenuous.

No, I didn't provide exactly that on page 1 of this thread ...

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I played Loramin on Blue for at least half a decade, yet I never got him true "high-end gear". He just has "best in slot" gear for a non-raider or casual guild raider ... which doesn't suck either: a full suit of TOV armor (except for a Vindi BP upgrade), Lodi Shield, +6 neck, Shawl, the Chardok ring, etc. I still have a few more things to acquire (eg. Spirit Wracked Cord) ...

... and yet, Loramin only has 175 stamina. That's 225 self-buffed, which is still more than 25 away from the cap. Also, I think I put most/all of my starting points into Stamina.

What was that about how you were so good at reading threads, and I was so bad at it?

[battins]

Smaller the mana pool means the shorter your smoke break. Get the larger mana pool and go afk longer. Live the high-life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Provide a magelo on what a "normal shaman" looks like, so we can all be on the same page. Are you saying normal Shaman's all have their epic?