most underpowered class in game?

[Troxx]

So yeah no … with the exception of raids mages are nowhere near the most underpowered class … not by a long shot. For levels 1-60 count they are incredibly powerful … both in groups and for solo potential.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So yeah no … with the exception of raids mages are nowhere near the most underpowered class … not by a long shot. For levels 1-60 count they are incredibly powerful … both in groups and for solo potential.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's my synopsis of this thread:

DeathsSilkyMist is notorious for instigating long, drawn out threads typically from a subjective claim that he will say was solved by "math". He will gladly go 500+ pages in a thread to attempt to "win" to get his point across, despite the overwhelming majority disagreeing with him. His presentation is what annoys most people, due to the arrogant connotation that usually comes along with it, even if doesn't specifically mean to do so(or he could be the most well disguised troll on these forums).

His claim to mages being the most underpowered class is basically the reason we all have many alts. There's a better raiding class, there's a better grouping class, there are better solo classes. But when you look at the full scope of the game, a mage is quite good, despite their lack of cc/utility/etc. They can blow through content that can take "utility" classes much longer to do, because of their superior pets, nukes, DS, etc. Sure, you see more rogues in the raid scene, but that doesn't make them a more powerful class. A Mage overall simply has more areas where they can exert their power. And to me that's what being overpowered/underpowered is all about. How much power does your toolkit give you in every area of the game?

There's no right answer to this thread, it's all subjective, I think most would generally agree it's not a mage though. I think Loraen's class selection guide is a pretty accurate description of average class rating, since he actually considers all aspects of the game, and mage actually falls in the top 5, despite them been supposedly useless at 60 and not caring about what the class was intended for. That's the thing about being overpowered/underpowered. It wasn't necessarily an intention, but it happened anyway.

[Troxx]

We will have to agree to disagree. You won’t be changing my mind and I doubt I can change yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We will have to agree to disagree. You won’t be changing my mind and I doubt I can change yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes Crede, we all know that attacking people's character with your imaginary fantasies isn't an argument. Reposting nonsense isn't convincing anyone[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are also incorrect that it is subjective. There is an objective answer. There simply isn't any individual or group of individuals willing to compile the data necessary to prove which one is most underpowered without a doubt. All computer applications are based on math. Statistically there is a best and worst class in every game ever created.

If you have been playing the game for years, you will see patterns of class usage throughout the leveling process, and at level 60. Mages tend to peter out in the later levels due to how much they fall off. I can't think of any other class that does this, and this is why Mages end up as CoTH Bots. To me, that pattern of behavior is pretty good data to show that Mages are underpowered. You can accurately say that Rogues suck at leveling, but at the end of the day more people play them than Mages.

[Troxx]

I can’t think of a single class that doesn’t have an area where it shines when you factor in the sum total of the experience in playing EverQuest. Low level… high level … and everything in between in the world of Norrath.

So no, objectively there is no best or worst class globally.

If you focus on specific areas of this game and at certain tiers of gameplay, yeah some of them are undeniably horrible (like druid on high end velious raids … where you’re a potg buff bot and a patch healer who is the worst at healing).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can’t think of a single class that doesn’t have an area where it shines when you factor in the sum total of the experience in playing EverQuest. Low level… high level … and everything in between in the world of Norrath.

So no, objectively there is no best or worst class globally.

If you focus on specific areas of this game and at certain tiers of gameplay, yeah some of them are undeniably horrible (like druid on high end velious raids … where you’re a potg buff bot and a patch healer who is the worst at healing).

Yes, objectively there is a best and worst class. This is true in all games, because all games are based on math. The differences may be minor, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true. Again, there simply isn't anyone willing to compile the data to find it.

I agree that every class has strengths and weaknesses. But it's pretty unfortunate that Mages fall off quite a bit at the end game, which plenty of people like to play in.

I agree that Druids and Wizards also fall off quite a bit at 60, but because they have CC (and charm with Druids), they can still end up doing more higher level content than Mages.

Mages also don't have a monopoly on good DPS in groups, so they aren't at the front of the line when people are checking for which classes to select when building a group. I haven't really seen any groups decline a Rogue for a Mage.

[loramin]

For anyone who is curious about classic, I did a ton of searching for some sort of survey, or discussion of what was the best class ... and came up with nothing. People in classic really seemed to believe "every class has a purpose" more than "X class is better than Y".

But I did find this discussion of which class to pick that I found interesting: https://web.archive.org/web/20020124...bestclass.html

For instance, Enchanters:

Enchanters are the masters of illusion and confusion spells. They are not a great solo class but are highly sought after in a group. They are also one of the more interesting classes in the game as they can do so many unique things. Charm is also a useful(albeit dangerous) tool. Weaknesses are their low damage DD spells, the fact that their spells are resisted more than other classes, and the fact that they are most effective in a group.

So different from P99!

[Zuranthium]

Obviously people don't want to only level Mages. But again, even a single Mage in a party is a significant boost to how quickly a typical group can kill. Deleting Mage from the game is inherently is going to slow down the grouping landscape a bit as compared to deleting Paladin. At least, assuming an even redistribution of classes in the "delete X class from the game" idea.

Paladin is worse at soloing than Mage, worse at duoing, worse for full groups the majority of the time, and generally less impactful for raids. They have a huge EXP penalty the first 22 months of the game. They do not have any unique ability that's especially impactful to the landscape of the game. By every metric they are the weaker class.

And seriously, you need to stop with these dumb "a lot of people don't play that way" arguments. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY DON'T. THEY ARE PLAYING AT A LOWER POWER LEVEL. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously people don't want to only level Mages. But again, even a single Mage in a party is a significant boost to how quickly a typical group can kill. Deleting Mage from the game is inherently is going to slow down the grouping landscape a bit as compared to deleting Paladin. At least, assuming an even redistribution of classes in the "delete X class from the game" idea.

Paladin is worse at soloing than Mage, worse at duoing, worse for full groups the majority of the time, and generally less impactful for raids. They have a huge EXP penalty the first 22 months of the game. They do not have any unique ability that's especially impactful to the landscape of the game. By every metric they are the weaker class.

And seriously, you need to stop with these dumb "a lot of people don't play that way" arguments. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY DON'T. THEY ARE PLAYING AT A LOWER POWER LEVEL. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND.

I do understand. You are skewing the data by injecting your personal preference of how you play, rather than how the average player plays. When thinking about "most underpowered class", you have to use the averages, not your preferred data set. On P99 people generally play the game correctly. It isn't like we are dealing with a server where everybody is playing solo Warriors lol.

Again, this is why the conversation isn't going anywhere. You are off topic. Your topic is "most underpowered class assuming you are attempting to play at Zuranthium's definition of efficiency".