most underpowered class in game?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah, the power of Enchanter was being widely realized in 2000. During Kunark era Warrior-Cleric-Enchanter were named the "Holy Trinity" of the game. Everyone desperately wanted Clarity/Haste, and Tash/Slow/Mesmerize were highly valued too. Even without Charm usage, people were understanding the huge impact an Enchanter brought to a group.

If you asked in 2001, when Charming was also becoming more common (although definitely FAR less prevalent and understood compared to now), I think Enchanter would have won the poll. At least among decently seasoned players.

Their power in groups was absolutely recognized in groups ... and not because of their charming (Enchanters mostly didn't charm in groups in classic; their job in that "trinity" you mentioned was to mez and give Clarity, not add DPS).

They were not at all recognized for their soloing. Here most would argue they are the #1 soloing class (maybe #2 after Shaman). In classic Necromancer, Druid, and Mage would have all been ranked higher.

Our charm is simply not classic: live charm was far riskier, and that's why Enchanters opted to group rather than charm solo, by vast margins ... whereas here it's exactly the opposite.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are going back to the "most underpowered class in raiding" topic. If Mages were deleted, the game wouldn't be slower/harder for anybody but hardcore raiders, which is a minority on both servers.

It's ridiculous to act like raiders are some tiny minority of EQ and I'm not "going back" to that topic, it's just part of the entire discussion. Even outside of raids though, the game would indeed be slower for some people, because Mages are one of the best classes to have for leveling, whether in a group or solo. They are especially great when among people who find charming to be too difficult or annoying. Or even regardless for a new server, where charming isn't great anyway until you get to at least mid level, a group like 5 Mages and 1 Enchanter is probably the fastest way to level, and thus the best way to win the race to control the priority camps in the game.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Their power in groups was absolutely recognized in groups ... and not because of their charming (Enchanters mostly didn't charm in groups in classic; their job in that "trinity" you mentioned was to mez and give Clarity, not add DPS).

They were not at all recognized for their soloing. Here most would argue they are the #1 soloing class (maybe #2 after Shaman). In classic Necromancer, Druid, and Mage would have all been ranked higher.

Enchanters did add a lot of DPS to a group without Charm though - via Haste. Which people were widely realizing in 2000. Enchanters were always a fine solo class too, the animation pet was solid enough and could be given low delay weapons for huge DPS in 1999 (also could be used in group), and at higher levels people were using Charm to solo in 1999, most notably by camping town guards and throwing them into each other.

The Enchanter class was just severely underplayed at first, was the main thing. So even if you did start to understand how great they were, there often wouldn't be one around to play with. They quickly rose in popularity though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's ridiculous to act like raiders are some tiny minority of EQ and I'm not "going back" to that topic, it's just part of the entire discussion. Even outside of raids though, the game would indeed be slower for some people, because Mages are one of the best classes to have for leveling, whether in a group or solo. They are especially great when among people who find charming to be too difficult or annoying. Or even regardless for a new server, where charming isn't great anyway until you get to at least mid level, a group like 5 Mages and 1 Enchanter is probably the fastest way to level, and thus the best way to win the race to control the priority camps in the game.

Yes, you are overvaluing raiding in this discussion to make Mages better, which is why its exiting the topic. Most players statistically only casually raid, so it isn't a huge part of the "most underpowered overall" discussion. The only real exception to this is when looking at Warriors, because a large chunk of Warriors on the servers were created for raiding. The same can be said for Mages (CoTH Bots), but based on your arguments and the arguments of others, it is clear people place high value on soloing and grouping too, so the sliders change.

No, you don't see a 5 Mage 1 Ench leveling group that often, except for maybe when a new server spins up. The reason for this is because the group composition has one fatal flaw: Most of the group members are leveling Mages lol. XP groups are created by people who want to level the classes they want to play. They don't make Mages simply to maximize group DPS at the expense of not actually leveling the class they want to play. Just because that group composition may level fast on paper doesn't mean everybody wants to level a Mage.

Grouping would see no significant slowdown of XP if Mages were deleted.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Enchanter class was just severely underplayed at first, was the main thing. So even if you did start to understand how great they were, there often wouldn't be one around to play with. They quickly rose in popularity though.

I just don't buy that only one class was "underplayed" on live (which had an order of magnitude more players than P99), and therefore only that one class is played completely differently here (solo-dominant vs. group-dominant) ... while every other class in the game is fundamentally played the same way.

It seems far more likely our emulator isn't emulating properly (and charm is to safe here) than that 10x the number of Enchanters didn't know how to cast their spells on live.

[Troxx]

Yeah nah … I never ran across a rogue in a group that beat out my mage in sustained damage output (mage pet + mage personal dps combined). I parse everything. A high end velious raid geared rogue at level 60? Sure, but you don’t find too many max xp raid geared folks slumming around in xp groups.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah nah … I never ran across a rogue in a group that beat out my mage in sustained damage output (mage pet + mage personal dps combined). I parse everything. A high end velious raid geared rogue at level 60? Sure, but you don’t find too many max xp raid geared folks slumming around in xp groups.

That's my point. Rogues can eventually beat out a Mage, and this does vary based on mob resistances and if the mob is slowed. You basically have 0 personal DPS if your DD's can't land and the mob is slowed, taking less damage from a DS.

I would be interested to see these parses and what the Rogues gear was, if you have it.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's my point. Rogues can eventually beat out a Mage, and this does vary based on mob resistances and if the mob is slowed. You basically have 0 personal DPS if your DD's can't land and the mob is slowed, taking less damage from a DS.

I would be interested to see these parses and what the Rogues gear was, if you have it.

We’re talking your standard 50s xp group rogue with epic and a decent 1hander to pair it with. Even 55+ with double backstab.

Mage pets alone will outdamage a lot of melee classes if you take the time to get a max summon and buff it appropriately. Nuke push the mage over the top and we’re talking a lazily tossed 1-2 nukes per fight … not a full out burn. In burn mode mages are ludicrous in xp groups … but that’s not sustainable. This still ignores the mage dmg shield which isn’t insignificant.

Remember we’re talking groups here. Mages get the shaft in the raid scene.

Full disclosure: I haven’t dusted off my mage since the higher end pets were dialed back a bit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We’re talking your standard 50s xp group rogue with epic and a decent 1hander to pair it with. Even 55+ with double backstab.

Mage pets alone will outdamage a lot of melee classes if you take the time to get a max summon and buff it appropriately. Nukes so push the mage over the top and we’re talking a lazily tossed 1-2 nukes per fight. This still ignores the mage dmg shield which isn’t insignificant.

Remember we’re talking groups here. Mages get the shaft in the raid scene.

I honestly don't think that matters too much. All classes can fill roles just fine in a 50's XP group. You don't see groups heavily screening out other classes in favor of Mages for a slight edge in DPS. It's the same reason why groups don't screen for gear. You really don't need to go that crazy on DPS in a leveling group most of the time.

As I have stated before, Mages can level just fine. I just don't think that makes up for how much they fall off at 60 compared to other classes.

[Jimjam]

Mage pet still slaps compared to well geared players in xp groups. I think they just struggle in velious raids cos of the level difference.

Pet vs 45-55 mobs = fine. Pet vs 65-70 mobs = not so pretty

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mage pet still slaps compared to well geared players in xp groups. I think they just struggle in velious raids cos of the level difference.

Pet vs 45-55 mobs = fine. Pet vs 65-70 mobs = not so pretty

Oh yeah, their Pet does great DPS. No disagreement there. It just can't scale as well as a player, and their damage isn't amazing enough to make up for a Mage's lack of CC and Utility in solo situations at higher levels. Plus pet bugs make them risky to use in more situations than an actual player. This applies to all pets obviously, but Mages are the most dependent on theirs, so it hurts them the most.