most underpowered class in game?

[zelld52]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

True, they aren't as useful in certain raid situations.

But I am not sure if any other class is so good in all three categories overall as an Enchanter. There are certainly situations in which other classes are better than Enchanters in a raid, especially when you can't Charm and you can't CC.

Shamans could come close, but they require a lot more money to get going, and they have the same issue as Enchanters, where quite a few Raid situations do not require more than a few Shamans.

When not talking about Shamans or Enchanters, usually the other classes start to drag on the solo/group categories.

Monk. Or bard. Powerful solo, grouped and lots to do on raids. Monk Moreso than bard on raids

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters are a bit hit and miss raiding imo. Great for several encounters e.g. Tunare, but go into most of ToV or VP or Sleepers golems and suddenly you're best off if 3/4ths of the enchanter's you had at Tunare swap to a different class. I bet our enchanters have a significantly higher than average rate of playing guild bots.

When the encounter doesn't allow for any mez/lull/charm/stun/root I feel a kinship with those magicians who can't summon a pet or land a nuke, too. The role reduction really changes the game even though the raid still needs a few of you.

I agree about soloing and grouping, though. Great class for either.

The only one I agree with you on is VP...and am appalled you included ToV in that list.

ToV
- Join a wizard group. Get a TL box. Tash mobs as they're being pulled in, hit your TL box, zone back in, get coth'd back up. This is one of the most important things enchanters can do during a contested pop or quake. Super critical on all competitive engages in which the target is slowable (doze, vulak, aary, koi, lady M, lady N, triples, etc) and any flurries that need to be killed. It makes raids go so much smoother when your shaman are landing slows on their first 1-2 casts.

- You need to sieve all shimmers / glimmers / blue drakes.

- Goalie duty on HoT minis, Ikki, LTK, Vulak guard wizard kites...hell if an enc has a TL box, SoW, and a DA earring they can help trainouts. Big, raid-saving blurs may be rare but you'll be Captain Clutch when you do pull it off.

- Hatchlings can be charmed, especially nice for Eashen and Vyemm.

Kael
- Charm a trooper / bvellos / korakaz. If that doesn't pucker yer butthole you are geared to the tits.

Fear + Hate
- Pets galore, Irak hits like a godamn truck.

Sleepers
- I did some charming there. It was scary....but you can make a small numbers prismatic scale farm crew with a couple enchanters charming. dolla dolla bills yallll

Trak
- Dictate a jugg, clutch for those low number / fast engages.

I could go on, but you get the idea. There are a lot of bad / lazy enchanters out there just licking walls and answering buff tells. Don't be one of them. And yes, I definitely logged on cleric bots plenty of times when the raid was running really heavy on enchanters.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only one I agree with you on is VP...and am appalled you included ToV in that list.

ToV
- Join a wizard group. Get a TL box. Tash mobs as they're being pulled in, hit your TL box, zone back in, get coth'd back up. This is one of the most important things enchanters can do during a contested pop or quake. Super critical on all competitive engages in which the target is slowable (doze, vulak, aary, koi, lady M, lady N, triples, etc) and any flurries that need to be killed. It makes raids go so much smoother when your shaman are landing slows on their first 1-2 casts.

- You need to sieve all shimmers / glimmers / blue drakes.

- Goalie duty on HoT minis, Ikki, LTK, Vulak guard wizard kites...hell if an enc has a TL box, SoW, and a DA earring they can help trainouts. Big, raid-saving blurs may be rare but you'll be Captain Clutch when you do pull it off.

- Hatchlings can be charmed, especially nice for Eashen and Vyemm.

Kael
- Charm a trooper / bvellos / korakaz. If that doesn't pucker yer butthole you are geared to the tits.

Fear + Hate
- Pets galore, Irak hits like a godamn truck.

Sleepers
- I did some charming there. It was scary....but you can make a small numbers prismatic scale farm crew with a couple enchanters charming. dolla dolla bills yallll

Trak
- Dictate a jugg, clutch for those low number / fast engages.

I could go on, but you get the idea. There are a lot of bad / lazy enchanters out there just licking walls and answering buff tells. Don't be one of them. And yes, I definitely logged on cleric bots plenty of times when the raid was running really heavy on enchanters.

I agree with all of this.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only one I agree with you on is VP...and am appalled you included ToV in that list.

ToV
- Join a wizard group. Get a TL box. Tash mobs as they're being pulled in, hit your TL box, zone back in, get coth'd back up. This is one of the most important things enchanters can do during a contested pop or quake. Super critical on all competitive engages in which the target is slowable (doze, vulak, aary, koi, lady M, lady N, triples, etc) and any flurries that need to be killed. It makes raids go so much smoother when your shaman are landing slows on their first 1-2 casts.

- You need to sieve all shimmers / glimmers / blue drakes.

- Goalie duty on HoT minis, Ikki, LTK, Vulak guard wizard kites...hell if an enc has a TL box, SoW, and a DA earring they can help trainouts. Big, raid-saving blurs may be rare but you'll be Captain Clutch when you do pull it off.

- Hatchlings can be charmed, especially nice for Eashen and Vyemm.

Kael
- Charm a trooper / bvellos / korakaz. If that doesn't pucker yer butthole you are geared to the tits.

Fear + Hate
- Pets galore, Irak hits like a godamn truck.

Sleepers
- I did some charming there. It was scary....but you can make a small numbers prismatic scale farm crew with a couple enchanters charming. dolla dolla bills yallll

Trak
- Dictate a jugg, clutch for those low number / fast engages.

I could go on, but you get the idea. There are a lot of bad / lazy enchanters out there just licking walls and answering buff tells. Don't be one of them. And yes, I definitely logged on cleric bots plenty of times when the raid was running really heavy on enchanters.

Seems like some good advice. Next ToV I'll make it a point to get in a wizard/mage group, maybe that's the part of the formula I'm missing there; regular tash+box would let me keep sow up to help kite/train/goaltend, too. I'll see if I can get away with more hatchling charming; some of the guild is pretty convinced that pets aren't worth the train risk in most of ToV and I'm not sure whether they would welcome hatchlings at Vyemm.

We make those Fear/Kael/Trak charms; I'm largely happy with my enchanter there. My enchanter isn't my sleeper's keyed character, but the scale farm does sound like a nice benefit if I do key him. I did see one of our enchanters tag himself a pet for Prog once, but it seemed like a novelty.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems like some good advice. Next ToV I'll make it a point to get in a wizard/mage group, maybe that's the part of the formula I'm missing there; regular tash+box would let me keep sow up to help kite/train/goaltend, too. I'll see if I can get away with more hatchling charming; some of the guild is pretty convinced that pets aren't worth the train risk in most of ToV and I'm not sure whether they would welcome hatchlings at Vyemm.

We make those Fear/Kael/Trak charms; I'm largely happy with my enchanter there. My enchanter isn't my sleeper's keyed character, but the scale farm does sound like a nice benefit if I do key him. I did see one of our enchanters tag himself a pet for Prog once, but it seemed like a novelty.

Yeah ST is really just more about getting the golem slowed ASAP. After that the clerics should be mana neutral / positive.

I really only ever charmed hatchlings for Eashen and Vyemm...may have yolo'd one up to Koi and Lady M on a quake or two and about a dozen beers deep, but its not necessary on slowable mobs.

Eashen is a no brainer...they're often running around the raid anyway.

Healing is always tight on Vyemm since its remedy / natures touch spam. Unless your guild has 20+ Porlos wizards nuking their brains out from up top, your healers will thank you as they furiously chew through all the rods.

I never had an issue with pathing / trains when charm broke in Vyemm pit...and you have tons of time to react as it runs up the ramp back towards you.

[loramin]

The thing about Enchanter is, while it's 100% correct, it's also a very P99-specific answer.

The class was far more balanced back in classic: if you could take a time machine back to 2001, and ask this same question of EverQuest players, they would have said Druid or Necromancer, or maybe Mage or Shaman; if you told them "the answer is Enchanter", they would look at you like you're crazy ("You mean the class that mezzes and gives clarity? How are they powerful?").

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing about Enchanter is, while it's 100% correct, it's also a very P99-specific answer.

The class was far more balanced back in classic: if you could take a time machine back to 2001, and ask this same question of EverQuest players, they would have said Druid or Necromancer, or maybe Mage or Shaman; if you told them "the answer is Enchanter", they would look at you like you're crazy ("You mean the class that mezzes and gives clarity? How are they powerful?").

Agreed, on live in 2001 people wouldn't have said Enchanter. But a lot of that came down to lack of game knowledge and what people played. Necromancers and Druids were considered to be much stronger because you weren't playing the same expansion for years at a time, so the flashy soloing and grouping characters were considered to be OP. They could get through an expansion faster, and therefore get more prepared for the next one.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Z was off topic discussing which classes could be deleted.

*sigh*, you are so obtuse. Looking at how much harder the game would be if a certain class was deleted is completely relevant to assessing the power level of a class. The missing class that would slow things down the least, that people would miss the least, is a clear indicator of them being one of the less powerful classes (although this isn't quite the sole determiner of gauging THE least powerful class in the game overall).

This scenario is not just a "what if" either, but an actual thing that happens ingame: aka, your guild doesn't have a certain class log on a particular day, or you can't find any of a certain class to group with. If we were to scientifically analyze how much slower each raid/group is in each instance, then we would have a very good idea of what the least powerful class in the game is. This very thorough data doesn't completely exist though, so we have to estimate it for ourselves.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing about Enchanter is, while it's 100% most OP, it's also a very P99-specific answer.

The class was far more balanced back in classic: if you could take a time machine back to 2001, and ask this same question of EverQuest players, they would have said Druid or Necromancer, or maybe Mage or Shaman; if you told them "the answer is Enchanter", they would look at you like you're crazy ("You mean the class that mezzes and gives clarity? How are they powerful?").

Nah, the power of Enchanter was being widely realized in 2000. During Kunark era Warrior-Cleric-Enchanter were named the "Holy Trinity" of the game. Everyone desperately wanted Clarity/Haste, and Tash/Slow/Mesmerize were highly valued too. Even without Charm usage, people were understanding the huge impact an Enchanter brought to a group.

If you asked in 2001, when Charming was also becoming more common (although definitely FAR less prevalent and understood compared to now), I think Enchanter would have won the poll. At least among decently seasoned players.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*sigh*, you are so obtuse. Looking at how much harder the game would be if a certain class was deleted is completely relevant to assessing the power level of a class. The missing class that would slow things down the least, that people would miss the least, is a clear indicator of them being one of the less powerful classes (although this isn't quite the sole determiner of gauging THE least powerful class in the game overall).

This scenario is not just a "what if" either, but an actual thing that happens ingame: aka, your guild doesn't have a certain class log on a particular day, or you can't find any of a certain class to group with. If we were to scientifically analyze how much slower each raid/group is in each instance, then we would have a very good idea of what the least powerful class in the game is. This very thorough data doesn't completely exist though, so we have to estimate it for ourselves.

Yeah like second half of 2000 Enchanter was creeping up there in importance. The game was becoming less about exploring and the journey and starting to shift more toward the min/maxing exp mentality because people were trying to level up their second chars etc. It wasn't what it is today with min/maxing of course, but people were really figuring out how ideal it was to have the mana regen, haste, slow, and CC all in one package.

Nah, the power of Enchanter was being widely realized in 2000. During Kunark era Warrior-Cleric-Enchanter were named the "Holy Trinity" of the game. Everyone desperately wanted Clarity/Haste, and Tash/Slow/Mesmerize were highly valued too. Even without Charm usage, people were understanding the huge impact an Enchanter brought to a group.

If you asked in 2001, when Charming was also becoming more common (although definitely FAR less prevalent and understood compared to now), I think Enchanter would have won the poll. At least among decently seasoned players.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*sigh*, you are so obtuse. Looking at how much harder the game would be if a certain class was deleted is completely relevant to assessing the power level of a class. The missing class that would slow things down the least, that people would miss the least, is a clear indicator of them being one of the less powerful classes (although this isn't quite the sole determiner of gauging THE least powerful class in the game overall).

This scenario is not just a "what if" either, but an actual thing that happens ingame: aka, your guild doesn't have a certain class log on a particular day, or you can't find any of a certain class to group with. If we were to scientifically analyze how much slower each raid/group is in each instance, then we would have a very good idea of what the least powerful class in the game is. This very thorough data doesn't completely exist though, so we have to estimate it for ourselves.

You are going back to the "most underpowered class in raiding" topic. If Mages were deleted, the game wouldn't be slower/harder for anybody but hardcore raiders, which is a minority on both servers. Please note that you could still do all raid content just fine. You don't need Mages to level fast in a grouping scenario. Nobody here is arguing that Mage's are the most underpowered in raids.