most underpowered class in game?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not ignoring the superior ways to progress in the game. The problem is progressing a Mage is pointless because they end up sucking at 60, except for being a CoTH bot.

This isn't true at all. Mages contribute plenty at 60 and can farm well, thus gaining the money to gear out other characters. It's faster to start out as a Mage on a server and get gear for a melee character that way, than it is to start as a naked melee and try to level with trash gear and try to do camps like that. That is, assuming people don't powerlevel you for free and give you free gear.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We aren't talking about deleting classes, so this point is irrelevant. In a discussion about deleting classes, deleting a Mage wouldn't really change anything either. It would just slow down the raiding meta a bit. You don't need CoTH to do any raid content.

OMFG, your comprehension level is so low.

When looking at what each class contributes to the game, there are clearly varying degrees of "necessities". And as already talked about, power is direct measurement of how quickly and efficiently you can do things in this game. No class is "needed" if you simply have enough players and spend enough time, but different abilities create different amounts of benefit.

Mage contributes more to raids (and the majority of groups) than a Paladin. CoTH is not the only thing they do, a Mage being present is also an increase to the amount of mana your casters have, thanks to mod rods. Mages can also do big DPS when clearing to the "boss" on a raid and are capable of contributing DPS to the end fight as well, even though it's lesser at that point since their nukes will hardly land.

Shadowknight is arguably the least "helpful" class for raids and overall if they were the deleted class in theory, then also nothing in the game would really change. But they have strengths outside of raids that are significantly better to me than what a Paladin can do, on average.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't true at all. Mages contribute plenty at 60 and can farm well, thus gaining the money to gear out other characters. It's faster to start out as a Mage on a server and get gear for a melee character that way, than it is to start as a naked melee and try to level with trash gear and try to do camps like that. That is, assuming people don't powerlevel you for free and give you free gear.



OMFG, your comprehension level is so low.

When looking at what each class contributes to the game, there are clearly varying degrees of "necessities". And as already talked about, power is direct measurement of how quickly and efficiently you can do things in this game. No class is "needed" if you simply have enough players and spend enough time, but different abilities create different amounts of benefit.

Mage contributes more to raids (and the majority of groups) than a Paladin. CoTH is not the only thing they do, a Mage being present is also an increase to the amount of mana your casters have, thanks to mod rods. Mages can also do big DPS when clearing to the "boss" on a raid and are capable of contributing DPS to the end fight as well, even though it's lesser at that point since their nukes will hardly land.

Shadowknight is arguably the least "helpful" class for raids and overall if they were the deleted class in theory, then also nothing in the game would really change. But they have strengths outside of raids that are significantly better to me than what a Paladin can do, on average.

Yes, Mages lose efficacy as they level due to lack of CC and Utility. Why do you think Shamans and Enchanters are such good solo artists? They have CC, Utility, and DPS all rolled into one. This is how you excel later in the game. Mages can't increase their Pet's DPS with gear, so their advantage wanes as they get higher level.

No, you just keep switching out of the topic "most underpowered overall". Last time I checked, we weren't on the topic "most underpowered raid class". This is why this conversation isn't going anywhere. You can't stay on topic because the only way you can have a mage not be "most underpowered" is when you switch to a different topic. Of course Mages are not the most underpowered in a raid, as I have said repeatedly.

Twitch is better than Mod Rods, so mages could be deleted and no one would really care, it would just slow down raiding a bit due to no more CoTH. Having both is nice, but Twitch would be better if you had to pick one.

If a raid had to pick one class to get rid of, Rogue or Mage, they would pick Mage every time. You don't need CoTH or mod rods to kill AoW, but you do need DPS, and Mages don't use their pets in raids.

[Zuranthium]

Twitch is not better than Mod Rods. The rods are something you can stockpile, twitch is only active once the fight starts. The mod rod spell itself is also FAR more mana efficient than Necro twitch. Necro twitching on a raid is worse than having another Cleric instead. It doesn't add any optimized power level to raiding, whereas a Mage does.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mages don't use their pets in raids.

They should, and smart teams do. It's DPS.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you just keep switching out of the topic "most underpowered overall".

I don't LOL, you are so confused. You simply fail to understand, over and over, how wrong you are. Despite everyone spelling it out in 100 different ways. There is no metric in which Mage is the most underpowered class overall on a PvE server.

[Zeboim]

Dunno about that one chief. I remember our main grading system of the quality of a Mage back on live was the complexity of the patterns he could draw with rods in the shortest time period.

[magnetaress]

bUTt guOis

dPS m3TERz r ToXoiC!

[Toxigen]

Either way, you can have both rods and twitch. Pretty silly to argue that mod rods aren't worth it because wall-lickers can't mouse over and click pixels.

The only place SK really shines over other classes on p99 raids is pulling off the bard kite in PoG (Fear too I suppose) and yo-yo aggro on enchanter pets for tunare. Trash clears and tunare can/has been done without SKs just fine, but they certainly do a great job there.

Rangers can bump, mages coth, and paladins bring DS / soulfire. The answer is still SK for most underpowered. Sorry you play a SK and can't lay an argument to rest. The fact of the matter is a top-tier raid guild could have zero SKs and wouldn't be at any disadvantage, ever. The same cannot be said for any other class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Either way, you can have both rods and twitch. Pretty silly to argue that mod rods aren't worth it because wall-lickers can't mouse over and click pixels.

The only place SK really shines over other classes on p99 raids is pulling off the bard kite in PoG (Fear too I suppose) and yo-yo aggro on enchanter pets for tunare. Trash clears and tunare can/has been done without SKs just fine, but they certainly do a great job there.

Rangers can bump, mages coth, and paladins bring DS / soulfire. The answer is still SK for most underpowered. Sorry you play a SK and can't lay an argument to rest. The fact of the matter is a top-tier raid guild could have zero SKs and wouldn't be at any disadvantage, ever. The same cannot be said for any other class.

I am not arguing SK's are good in raids lol. I have said many times on this forum SK's are the worst raiding class, and have never said otherwise.

Again, you are off topic. The question is not "most underpowered raiding class".

I also never said you can't have both Rods and Twitch lol, or that Mod Rods aren't worth it. Not sure what you are reading. Literally nothing you have said is on topic, or in response to what I have been saying.

Z was off topic discussing which classes could be deleted. You can delete a Mage and raiding would still work fine, it would just be a bit slower without CoTH and Mod Rods. There is no raid content that needs either. You can kill AoW without Mod Rods and CoTH. I have seen this.

[Crede]

Here's my synopsis of this thread:

DeathsSilkyMist is notorious for instigating long, drawn out threads typically from a subjective claim that he will say was solved by "math". He will gladly go 500+ pages in a thread to attempt to "win" to get his point across, despite the overwhelming majority disagreeing with him. His presentation is what annoys most people, due to the arrogant connotation that usually comes along with it, even if doesn't specifically mean to do so(or he could be the most well disguised troll on these forums).

His claim to mages being the most underpowered class is basically the reason we all have many alts. There's a better raiding class, there's a better grouping class, there are better solo classes. But when you look at the full scope of the game, a mage is quite good, despite their lack of cc/utility/etc. They can blow through content that can take "utility" classes much longer to do, because of their superior pets, nukes, DS, etc. Sure, you see more rogues in the raid scene, but that doesn't make them a more powerful class. A Mage overall simply has more areas where they can exert their power. And to me that's what being overpowered/underpowered is all about. How much power does your toolkit give you in every area of the game?

There's no right answer to this thread, it's all subjective, I think most would generally agree it's not a mage though. I think Loraen's class selection guide is a pretty accurate description of average class rating, since he actually considers all aspects of the game, and mage actually falls in the top 5, despite them been supposedly useless at 60 and not caring about what the class was intended for. That's the thing about being overpowered/underpowered. It wasn't necessarily an intention, but it happened anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's my synopsis of this thread:

DeathsSilkyMist is notorious for instigating long, drawn out threads typically from a subjective claim that he will say was solved by "math". He will gladly go 500+ pages in a thread to attempt to "win" to get his point across, despite the overwhelming majority disagreeing with him. His presentation is what annoys most people, due to the arrogant connotation that usually comes along with it, even if doesn't specifically mean to do so(or he could be the most well disguised troll on these forums).

His claim to mages being the most underpowered class is basically the reason we all have many alts. There's a better raiding class, there's a better grouping class, there are better solo classes. But when you look at the full scope of the game, a mage is quite good, despite their lack of cc. They can blow through content that can take "utility" classes much longer to do, because of their superior pets, nukes, DS, etc. Sure, you see more rogues in the raid scene, but they were designed for this. That doesn't make them a more powerful class. A Mage overall simply has more areas where they can exert their power. And to me that's what being overpowered/underpowered is all about. How much power does your toolkit give you in every area of the game?

There's no right answer to this thread, it's all subjective, I think most would generally agree it's not a mage though. I think Loraen's class selection guide is a pretty accurate description of average class rating, since he actually considers all aspects of the game, and mage actually falls in the top 5, despite them been supposedly useless at 60 and not caring about what the class was intended for. That's the thing about being overpowered/underpowered. It wasn't necessarily an intention, but it happened anyway.

Untrue. I never claimed it was objective fact either, since nobody has the data[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The problem is simply people do not stay on topic, and don't like admitting classes they enjoy aren't as good as they think. They also falsely assume "underpowered" = bad. This is wrong.

I know it is an easy excuse to blame things on some imaginary personality flaw of another person, but it simply isn't true. I am sorry you can't make good arguments without attacking people's character.

A Mage's toolkit is limited due to lack of CC. Period. They become worse and worse as you gain higher levels because of this. There is a reason why Shamans and Enchanters are so good at soloing. Utility and CC are a critical part of this game, more-so than DPS. If this wasn't the case, you could power through WW Dragons with pure DPS while soloing. This is why you don't see level 60 Mages that often in the wild. Their lack of CC and Utility catches up to them at high levels, when you can't just power through with DPS (especially since Mage Pet DPS isn't top tier). OP isn't asking "which class can level quickly?". Not everybody simply levels a class and then quits them immediately.

And just because the "majority" disagrees with someone, doesn't mean they are wrong, this is a fallacy.

People getting annoyed is irrelevant. We are here to give people the best information we can so they can play the game properly. If you are providing bad information, that needs to be stopped, so people can get the correct information. Nobody cares if your feelings are hurt because of a discussion on a 22 year old Elf Sim.

EDIT: I'll take back the math part. While I don't believe I invoked it yet in this discussion, you obviously could math this out with the data and statistics on how people play. Every computer application is based on math too. But we don't have the data, so there isn't much we can do on that front.

[zelld52]

This thread is 44 pages long. Lmfao.

I think underpowered is warrior. They have the least amount of utility. I Love warrior too, but warrior requires a whole bunch of support from other classes in order to get anything done.

Rogue is in the same category, needs a group (tank) to be effective. But hide / sneak and pick locks put them above warrior in their abilities levelling, questing, exploring, etc.