most underpowered class in game?

[Ghost of Starman]

I thought Shamwowi had some decent logical takes on things in previous threads I've read, but this "DPS doesn't matter and isn't important in groups because people don't gear check" take is really dumb and low IQ, to put it bluntly.

What's the purpose of a non-farming group under *ideal* conditions? It would be to maximize XP per hour given time is our constraint. How do you maximize XP flow? by killing faster and minimizing deaths and downtime.

Increased DPS leads to faster killing, and also minimizes deaths by reducing the amount of time the group is taking damage per mob by eliminating them faster, especially if you're fighting casting mobs and can burn through them, for example, before they land an Ice Comet on your tank. The only time DPS is redundant is if you're killing so fast you're able to completely clear whatever area your camping and are forced to wait for repops.

The only support you need is the minimum amount necessary to prevent wipes and death, having too much redundant support / utility can actually lead to more death due to slow kill time combined with mob pops / patrols / etc.

The fact that (most) P99 players aren't complete assholes like many modern gen MMO players and gatekeep based on gear checks is due to a combination of factors, including the lower population leading to higher reputational costs of being a jerk (you can't just random queue for a raid/group like in WoW, you're going to be seeing the same people over and over and they'll remember if you were an ass), less choice of groupmates due to the smaller pop, the average age of players being much higher than a modern game, and the fact that the game isn't *AS* punishing for non-optimal groups as some modern MMOs are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ghost of Starman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I thought Shamwowi had some decent logical takes on things in previous threads I've read, but this "DPS doesn't matter and isn't important in groups because people don't gear check" take is really dumb and low IQ, to put it bluntly.

What's the purpose of a non-farming group under *ideal* conditions? It would be to maximize XP per hour given time is our constraint. How do you maximize XP flow? by killing faster and minimizing deaths and downtime.

Increased DPS leads to faster killing, and also minimizes deaths by reducing the amount of time the group is taking damage per mob by eliminating them faster, especially if you're fighting casting mobs and can burn through them, for example, before they land an Ice Comet on your tank. The only time DPS is redundant is if you're killing so fast you're able to completely clear whatever area your camping and are forced to wait for repops.

The only support you need is the minimum amount necessary to prevent wipes and death, having too much redundant support / utility can actually lead to more death due to slow kill time combined with mob pops / patrols / etc.

The fact that (most) P99 players aren't complete assholes like many modern gen MMO players and gatekeep based on gear checks is due to a combination of factors, including the lower population leading to higher reputational costs of being a jerk (you can't just random queue for a raid/group like in WoW, you're going to be seeing the same people over and over and they'll remember if you were an ass), less choice of groupmates due to the smaller pop, the average age of players being much higher than a modern game, and the fact that the game isn't *AS* punishing for non-optimal groups as some modern MMOs are.

Irrelevant nonsense. The only thing that matters is how people actually play the game. Not how you think it plays on paper. Factually speaking most groups have suboptimal DPS due to class composition and gear. This does not stop players from leveling up efficently. If you don't know this, you don't play the game.

[Allishia]

I still try to stack groups, tank/clr/enc/ my alt I'm lvling [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Keep at 4 max when I'm really trying to ding /nod.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I still try to stack groups, tank/clr/enc/ my alt I'm lvling [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Keep at 4 max when I'm really trying to ding /nod.

Oh yeah, if you run a static or have a group of friends its a lot easier to min/max a group. But most people don't do that for xp groups, at least not in my experience.

Most pickup groups just get what they can. As long as you have a healer, tank, and puller, the group can operate just fine. No gear checks happen, and most mobs have low enough HP for any tank to chew through. A DPS class increases kill speed, but more players in group also reduces XP.

The biggest increase to your kill speed is generally more players, not some hypercarry DPS class. This is because more players means any class can DPS more due to having support. They have less DPS downtime.

That is what I am saying, the increased DPS a mage brings to the table does not generally make up for their lack of utility. A well tuned xp group is not going to bring a pure DPS with no utility. That is a waste of a group slot.

[Fammaden]

The statement "DPS is unimportant" is obviously vastly overstated and nonsensical on its face, but as usual Shamwowi's actual point is better than his ability to deliver it.

His point being more that "optimized dps is not important" and that's more true. A suboptimal but reasonably balanced group can do probably 80% of the efficiency of a perfect composition for the given era, and that's really good enough for grinding xp when it comes to doing pick up groups.

However, I'd stand by what I said at the beginning of the thread, pre-Kunark rogues are VERY sub-optimal to the degree that it definitely does make a difference and I don't blame anyone for not really wanting them in groups if they had the choice on green.

Lacking the wider range of haste items, higher haste percentages, improved ratio weapons, and the massive boost of double backstab at 55+, I'm sticking with the rogue class as most underpowered in the classic/vanilla era.

A nearly completely group dependent class that generally slows groups down versus most other DPS options in the pre-expansion game, and needs a tank in group to function at all so all those pet-centric xp groups in sub-50 classic timeline don't have any use for you at all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The statement "DPS is unimportant" is obviously vastly overstated and nonsensical on its face, but as usual Shamwowi's actual point is better than his ability to deliver it.

His point being more that "optimized dps is not important" and that's more true. A suboptimal but reasonably balanced group can do probably 80% of the efficiency of a perfect composition for the given era, and that's really good enough for grinding xp when it comes to doing pick up groups.

However, I'd stand by what I said at the beginning of the thread, pre-Kunark rogues are VERY sub-optimal to the degree that it definitely does make a difference and I don't blame anyone for not really wanting them in groups if they had the choice on green.

Lacking the wider range of haste items, higher haste percentages, improved ratio weapons, and the massive boost of double backstab at 55+, I'm sticking with the rogue class as most underpowered in the classic/vanilla era.

A nearly completely group dependent class that generally slows groups down versus most other DPS options in the pre-expansion game, and needs a tank in group to function at all so all those pet-centric xp groups in sub-50 classic timeline don't have any use for you at all.

The problem isn't the delivery of my point in most cases (not all, I do misspeak at times, and admit it when I do). The general problem is people on this forum prefer "gotcha" moments over real discussion. I never said "DPS is unimportant". You can check the post history. This is an oversimplification of my argument either due to lack of reading, or "gotcha".

This latest discussion about DPS started on page 31, where Zuranthium attempted to claim that Mages have high DPS, therefore they are much better than my previous assessment of the class. To which I responded:

Unfortunately in most solo/group situations utility is greater than DPS. It doesn't make mages any better. I'd take a Necro's utility over a Mage's DPS any day of the week. There is a reason why groups do not gear check members. DPS really isn't that important most of the time. If it was, you would get screened out of a group if your gear was bad while you were playing Rogue, Monk, etc.

When I say "DPS really isn't that important most of the time", that isn't me saying "DPS is unimportant and you can kill mobs without damage". There is a reason why I say "Isn't that important most of the time". In English that means it matters, but it isn't the primary factor. I don't believe I ever said "DPS is unimportant" flat out. I am sorry if people do not understand the difference between the two statements, or if they speed read through my posts.

I basically re-iterate this point multiple times in between page 31 and now.

[Allishia]

All you need for dps is a good enc/nec with pet gear who knows what they doing /nod

[7thGate]

Well, it is true people don't gear check you. I leveled Jayya with ALS gear in probably 40% public/60% guild groups, and noone ever kicked me or even mentioned that I was swinging a Burning Rapier and Iksar Berserker Club around in my 30's.

That being said, its not just DPS that you don't need for a group. There's no real absolutely required role at all, though healing is close. I've been in plenty of groups that don't have tanks or don't have healers, and the ones with no tanks are fine but the ones with no healers tend to slow a lot.

Noone is going to gear check a tank for a group and one of the best groups I was ever in was just 5 rogues and a shaman aggro bouncing and slaughtering stuff over and over. One of the most fun events I've ever run was just an all-rogue group in Siren's Grotto whacking sirens one by one with a pocket factioned enchanter/cleric pair to patch up between kills and keep us buffed.

In any case, I would have to vote Shadow Knight. I think they have the least unique, useful niches out of all the classes. Mage might be a contender except for CotH, which by itself is incredible for getting people to a group/raid and pulling. Mages also get a boost for being really good at soloing.

Shadow Knight can still do cool stuff though, its just they kind of get overshadowed by Necros, Warriors or Paladins depending on what it is and don't really have a lot of truly unique things other than 1 or 2 AC debuffs.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, it is true people don't gear check you. I leveled Jayya with ALS gear in probably 40% public/60% guild groups, and noone ever kicked me or even mentioned that I was swinging a Burning Rapier and Iksar Berserker Club around in my 30's.

That being said, its not just DPS that you don't need for a group. There's no real absolutely required role at all, though healing is close. I've been in plenty of groups that don't have tanks or don't have healers, and the ones with no tanks are fine but the ones with no healers tend to slow a lot.

Noone is going to gear check a tank for a group and one of the best groups I was ever in was just 5 rogues and a shaman aggro bouncing and slaughtering stuff over and over. One of the most fun events I've ever run was just an all-rogue group in Siren's Grotto whacking sirens one by one with a pocket factioned enchanter/cleric pair to patch up between kills and keep us buffed.

In any case, I would have to vote Shadow Knight. I think they have the least unique, useful niches out of all the classes. Mage might be a contender except for CotH, which by itself is incredible for getting people to a group/raid and pulling. Mages also get a boost for being really good at soloing.

Shadow Knight can still do cool stuff though, its just they kind of get overshadowed by Necros, Warriors or Paladins depending on what it is and don't really have a lot of truly unique things other than 1 or 2 AC debuffs.

I'll play devil's advocate and argue the case for gear:

True Story Time

The best XP I ever bore witness to was on my 58/59 (epic, fungi) rogue soon after they changed the Hole ZEM (the original mega boost, not current iteration). Found myself in a trio with a fungi / epic monk (pretty sure he was rocking sap encrusted branch and wurmscale fistwraps) and an epic (fungi too?) bard...all of us were 58 or 59. The monk had beads to boot. You can bet your sweet elf ass they gear-checked me before I got the invite...they were doing just fine without me.

No dedicated healer but the pulls were so insanely smooth I literally did not stop attacking on my rogue for over 4 hours. There was never a single moment where there was not at least 1 mob in camp with more on the way. Now, that was complete dirty-diaper-nerd-zone levels of commitment from all 3 of us but it utterly destroyed any XP I ever made leveling my enchanter, necro etc.

This never would have been accomplished if the bard/monk were trash tier players, but I doubt it would have been possible or even remotely efficient if their gear sucked. They were basically playing at the skill cap/ceiling and in godlike gear. They didn't "need" me to keep going, per se, but I was providing far more than enough dmg to make up for them going from 50/50 to 33% split.


All that being said, its still SK as the most underpowered class when you consider all aspects of the game. This is primarily because the paladin basically does what the SK can do but it brings Soulfire and DS. Mages are required to raid for any guild going after contested targets because of CotH. You could have literally zero SKs and be the #1 raid guild on p99. You cannot ignore raiding just because you're a SK main and don't got guild. Hope this helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll play devil's advocate and argue the case for gear:

True Story Time

The best XP I ever bore witness to was on my 58/59 (epic, fungi) rogue soon after they changed the Hole ZEM (the original mega boost, not current iteration). Found myself in a trio with a fungi / epic monk (pretty sure he was rocking sap encrusted branch and wurmscale fistwraps) and an epic (fungi too?) bard...all of us were 58 or 59. The monk had beads to boot. You can bet your sweet elf ass they gear-checked me before I got the invite...they were doing just fine without me.

No dedicated healer but the pulls were so insanely smooth I literally did not stop attacking on my rogue for over 4 hours. There was never a single moment where there was not at least 1 mob in camp with more on the way. Now, that was complete dirty-diaper-nerd-zone levels of commitment from all 3 of us but it utterly destroyed any XP I ever made leveling my enchanter, necro etc.

This never would have been accomplished if the bard/monk were trash tier players, but I doubt it would have been possible or even remotely efficient if their gear sucked. They were basically playing at the skill cap/ceiling and in godlike gear. They didn't "need" me to keep going, per se, but I was providing far more than enough dmg to make up for them going from 50/50 to 33% split.


All that being said, its still SK as the most underpowered class when you consider all aspects of the game. This is primarily because the paladin basically does what the SK can do but it brings Soulfire and DS. Mages are required to raid for any guild going after contested targets because of CotH. You could have literally zero SKs and be the #1 raid guild on p99. You cannot ignore raiding just because you're a SK main and don't got guild. Hope this helps.

Don't get me wrong, if you have great gear it makes the game smoother. I don't think anybody (including myself) has argued against that point. The point is simply that most content does not need players to be geared in god-like gear to achieve good results when XPing. Will it be as good as god-tier players in god-tier gear? Of course not, but sadly that is not the average pickup group, and luckily the game doesn't need this for your group to be successful. And I have been in this kind of group you are mentioning, so I do appreciate how awesome a group like this can be.

I disagree with the SK point when considering all aspects of the game. Factually speaking most players on P99 are not hardcore raiders. In my estimation that makes raiding a smaller part of the consideration when determining "most underpowered overall", which is what this thread was asking. The vast majority of content is solo/group content, and SK's are generally better at that than Mages, due to a Mage having basically no role outside of DPS in Solo/Group content. They are similar to Rogues in that sense, where they are limited to what they can kill without CC, or must resort to using a lot of clickies.

If this discussion was "most underpowered raid class in the game", I would 100% agree. SK's are the worst raiding class on P99, and Mages are great.