most underpowered class in game?

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of this thread isn't to claim any class is unplayable, and I think a lot of people are taking it that way. I understand why, since everybody has a favorite class.

All classes are playable on P99 today, and each class can do some pretty cool stuff when you become adept at playing them. The point of this thread is simply to determine which class is the most underpowered. That doesn't mean bad/unplayable, it just means worse compared to other classes.

The problem with Ranger is some of their best spells are outdoor only, and they were designed to be played outdoors. This means on average a Shadowknight/Paladin is going to be more useful in a group, because they don't have that restriction. This is especially true considering a lot of higher traffic zones are indoors.

That doesn't mean Rangers can't do well in Dungeons, it just means they have a inherit disadvantage that they can't get around.

What I’m trying to say is generally harmony is a crutch, the rangers spectrum of movement control spells split up mobs is far better than harmony. In Kc i’d often not have harmony memmed, for example. The spell that I missed indoors was wolf form, but considering many dps insta click off wolf form, maybe it is just me that values those kind of spells so highly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I’m trying to say is generally harmony is a crutch, the rangers spectrum of movement control spells split up mobs is far better than harmony. In Kc i’d often not have harmony memmed, for example. The spell that I missed indoors was wolf form, but considering many dps insta click off wolf form, maybe it is just me that values those kind of spells so highly.

I think it is a little silly to say Harmony is a crutch. I don't think Lulls or Feign Death are a crutch for pulling.

Any class can pull. Depending on how well you know the zone, you could even pull fairly well. But most people would still prefer using a safer method for pulling, because death is highly disruptive to the leveling process.

When you take away Harmony from Rangers, they aren't any different from a Wizard in terms of pulling. A Wizard could use snares and roots to accomplish the same thing you are describing. Wizards can also get instant agro with Staff of Temperate Flux.

[Jibartik]

harmony pulling in crushbone, cazic, msitmoore, is great fun, but from that point forward you gotta wait till kunark to do it again like the old days

[PlsNoBan]

I don't think the majority share the same lowly view of mages in group scenarios as you do. I also think you overestimate necro utility/dps in comparison. Necro will blow mage away if a good undead charm target is available BUT if there isn't an undead available mage damage is going to be consistently a good bit higher. Especially in a fast killing group where a necro's dots are practically 100% useless and is resorting to lifetaps for DPS. Necro utility is also situational whereas raw DPS is not. A solid group with a good enchanter and a cleric that isn't struggling for mana has very little use for necro utility.

It depends on where the group is and what classes it has but I'd say I'm probably taking mage over necro the majority of the time. Exceptions being undead heavy zones and if the group lacks CC. Even then it's a bit of a toss up cause like 90% of necros don't know how to play in a group and you don't get anywhere near the full potential benefit of having them around anyway.

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think the majority share the same lowly view of mages in group scenarios as you do. I also think you overestimate necro utility/dps in comparison. Necro will blow mage away if a good undead charm target is available BUT if there isn't an undead available mage damage is going to be consistently a good bit higher. Especially in a fast killing group where a necro's dots are practically 100% useless and is resorting to lifetaps for DPS. Necro utility is also situational whereas raw DPS is not. A solid group with a good enchanter and a cleric that isn't struggling for mana has very little use for necro utility.

It depends on where the group is and what classes it has but I'd say I'm probably taking mage over necro the majority of the time. Exceptions being undead heavy zones and if the group lacks CC. Even then it's a bit of a toss up cause like 90% of necros don't know how to play in a group and you don't get anywhere near the full potential benefit of having them around anyway.

A good necro simply brings a lot more utility than a mage. A good necro will keep mana up for healers and enchanters,do half decent DPS with their pet. Their crowd control is very useful, necros are just a very well rounded class whereas mages can do very few things.

My first lvl 60 on p99 was a magician.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think it is a little silly to say Harmony is a crutch. I don't think Lulls or Feign Death are a crutch for pulling.

Any class can pull. Depending on how well you know the zone, you could even pull fairly well. But most people would still prefer using a safer method for pulling, because death is highly disruptive to the leveling process.

When you take away Harmony from Rangers, they aren't any different from a Wizard in terms of pulling. A Wizard could use snares and roots to accomplish the same thing you are describing. Wizards can also get instant agro with Staff of Temperate Flux.

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A good necro simply brings a lot more utility than a mage. A good necro will keep mana up for healers and enchanters,do half decent DPS with their pet. Their crowd control is very useful, necros are just a very well rounded class whereas mages can do very few things.

My first lvl 60 on p99 was a magician.

The pulling meta for groups the past year or so is no longer pull singles but groups of 2-4 mobs. It’s interesting you mention wizards as they are very good pullers/cc for such groups, even better than rangers!

They pull / get target with eye, hit the pull with aoe snare at the choke point into the camp and get things rooted quickly. The snare and root on inc really helps tank establish aggro as they can use proxy aggro from root initially, and taunt off the snare to piggy back a big boost to their hate.

The servers are very twinked at this point and groups close to pure melee do fine into the 50s. Often the only caster is a bard or enc focusing on heals or slows or a necromancer acting as healer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The pulling meta for groups the past year or so is no longer pull singles but groups of 2-4 mobs. It’s interesting you mention wizards as they are very good pullers/cc for such groups, even better than rangers!

They pull / get target with eye, hit the pull with aoe snare at the choke point into the camp and get things rooted quickly. The snare and root on inc really helps tank establish aggro as they can use proxy aggro from root initially, and taunt off the snare to piggy back a big boost to their hate.

The servers are very twinked at this point and groups close to pure melee do fine into the 50s. Often the only caster is a bard or enc focusing on heals or slows or a necromancer acting as healer.

As I stated before, any class can pull. But your pull game would be even better with Harmony/Lull/FD. Just because people can pull in some zones without it, doesn't mean it is always a viable method to pull. This makes classes without Harmony/Lull/FD more limited in terms of where they can pull successfully. If you are in an area where you can pull that loosely, the area is already trivial, so a SK/Necro/Monk/Paladin is going to be just as good or better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think the majority share the same lowly view of mages in group scenarios as you do. I also think you overestimate necro utility/dps in comparison. Necro will blow mage away if a good undead charm target is available BUT if there isn't an undead available mage damage is going to be consistently a good bit higher. Especially in a fast killing group where a necro's dots are practically 100% useless and is resorting to lifetaps for DPS. Necro utility is also situational whereas raw DPS is not. A solid group with a good enchanter and a cleric that isn't struggling for mana has very little use for necro utility.

It depends on where the group is and what classes it has but I'd say I'm probably taking mage over necro the majority of the time. Exceptions being undead heavy zones and if the group lacks CC. Even then it's a bit of a toss up cause like 90% of necros don't know how to play in a group and you don't get anywhere near the full potential benefit of having them around anyway.

I don't have a lowly opinion of Mages[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Just because their kit is underpowered doesn't make them bad. Please do not get analysis confused with insult.

Luckily on P99 no class is actually bad or unplayable. Even the most underpowered class can still get through all of the game's content. However, some classes are better than others. In any asymmetrical game, classes are tiered. There is no way to avoid it, as this game isn't completely balanced like Chess.

Some people like to know which classes are better than others, as it is part of their decision making process when rolling a new class.

[Vaarsuvius]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think the majority share the same lowly view of mages in group scenarios as you do. I also think you overestimate necro utility/dps in comparison. Necro will blow mage away if a good undead charm target is available BUT if there isn't an undead available mage damage is going to be consistently a good bit higher. Especially in a fast killing group where a necro's dots are practically 100% useless and is resorting to lifetaps for DPS. Necro utility is also situational whereas raw DPS is not. A solid group with a good enchanter and a cleric that isn't struggling for mana has very little use for necro utility.

It depends on where the group is and what classes it has but I'd say I'm probably taking mage over necro the majority of the time. Exceptions being undead heavy zones and if the group lacks CC. Even then it's a bit of a toss up cause like 90% of necros don't know how to play in a group and you don't get anywhere near the full potential benefit of having them around anyway.

What would a mage offer to be higher dps than a necro of the same level ?

I have both and I can't think of anything aside from a DS and magic/fire nukes that will be resisted a lot more than Deflux / Touch of Night / Vexing Mordinia ?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think "best" is a great bar for class selection at a contested raid, but I think classes mostly thrive in the xp environment by being "not worse than good." And mages are good dps. I haven't seen groups I've been in passing them up for the role.

At raids mages are the "best" cothers, mod rod summoners, and invuln trainers; often making a few of them necessary. I think a lot of classes have a similar situation where a few of them are necessary but more are suboptimal; I know I frequently log a guild cleric or rogue instead of my enchanter in tov, for example.

We are talking about underpowered in general, not one specific set of content. I 100% agree with you Mages are amazing in raids. They are one of the top classes due to their utility. But If the argument is that most players spend most of their time outside of the raid scene, then this is only a small part of the evaluation. Also, only a very small part of their toolkit is used in raids.