When are they Implementing the Charm Nerf?

[DMN]

if you want you have the real old school solo enchanter exprerience the early days, follow my handy guide;


1. You don't use tash, ever. cause it has high resist rates and you were usually better off using something else instead due to the opportuity cost of a free opening spel-- same reason even today many shamans will cast slow before they bother land a mal spell.

2. You use vpn and make sure it's a shitty one that gives you 300ish ms ping with frequent spikes into 400-500, and complety disconests your internet at least once an hour. or pay someone to sit next to you and randomly do the same.

3. you have to always stare at the spellbook when you mediate.

4. you have to set up your visual/windows so you can't see the charm break message since it didn't exist -- which is really fun when paired with 3 above.

5. No qcd clickie. these didnt catch on in any significant manner until near a year into vanilla and even then is wasn't common outside of shamans cannabalizing.

6. No clarity spells. granted this only lasted for a couple moths,but you wanna be OG don't ya?


Let us know how it all works out for ya.

[loramin]

I didn't know about the clarity thing, but as for stuff like having a crappy connection and staring at the spellbook ... magicians, necros and druids all faced those same challenges, and yet they were all known for being solo classes (who still grouped sometimes of course).

Enchanters weren't: they were a majority grouping class, and in groups they were not charming because it was too risky. Here it's so safe Enchanters get yelled at if they don't charm a pet ... if you can find one who isn't soloing to group with [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I'm not saying Enchanter solo charming didn't happen, or shouldn't exist here: I'm just saying the numbers (as smarter people than me have suggested, the channeling numbers for instance) somehow need tweaking to make charming at least bit riskier again.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't know about the clarity thing, but as for stuff like having a crappy connection and staring at the spellbook ... magicians, necros and druids all faced those same challenges, and yet they were all known for being solo classes (who still grouped sometimes of course).

it's irrelevant to necros and mages, since the way they generally solo'd gave them a solid cushion in the case of a lag spike or even disconnect. You see, people actually played anticipationg the fact they would get massive lag spikes or even disconnects when they were soloing. It was a real thing you had to deal with or -- or delevel. Also a big part of the reason enchanter often opted to not solo charm even if they had the capabilities to do so.

Druids are a special case, in that if they were trying to charm or quad kite, they would indeed find themsleves in the same situtation as enchanters -- get a lag spike/disconnect and enjoy losing 8+ hours of experience loss. No level 49+ cleric was going to randomly trundle by and wipe your ass with exp rez. And thats why despite all the bullshit claims of druids quad kiting it was almost never done regularly for exp because the risk benefit ratio was complete dogshit for 95% of players. A similar throughline is found with the fairytale of "swarm kiting" bards in vanilla . It's just a fantasy that never happened.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters weren't: they were a majority grouping class, and in groups they were not charming because it was too risky. Here it's so safe Enchanters get yelled at if they don't charm a pet ... if you can find one who isn't soloing to group with [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters still charmed in groups but it was not done with any regularity. usually charming was done to try to break spawn in a difficult camp. But even if an enchanter was capable and wanted to keep a charm pet they would be scolded by the party into getting rid of it, because charm pets "Steal exp" and can make enemy corspes go "poof". I never saw any of that happen but because some idiot on the forums claimed it happens everyone believed it. there was also the reality that simply keeping a charm meant you were steaing a spawn spot for the group to gain more exp, and no one wanted that -- including the enchanter. lower guk with 200+ people in it ws not an oddity on fennin ro.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I'm not saying Enchanter solo charming didn't happen, or shouldn't exist here: I'm just saying the numbers (as smarter people than me have suggested, the channeling numbers for instance) somehow need tweaking to make charming at least bit riskier again.

Fucking with channeling will just make enchanters stronger. Color flux is a thing -- a thing only enchanters have access to.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters still charmed in groups but it was not done with any regularity. usually charming was done to try to break spawn in a difficult camp. But even if an enchanter was capable and wanted to keep a charm pet they would be scolded by the party into getting rid of it, because charm pets "Steal exp" and can make enemy corspes go "poof". I never saw any of that happen but because some idiot on the forums claimed it happens everyone believed it. there was also the reality that simply keeping a charm meant you were steaing a spawn spot for the group to gain more exp, and no one wanted that -- including the enchanter. lower guk with 200+ people in it ws not an oddity on fennin ro.

So you agree: in classic Enchanters didn't charm regularly, here's it's expected. And don't try to explain it with nonsense rumours: I've never once heard of charm pets poofing corpses and such, and neither did 90% of the servers players I'm sure.

There was lots of misinformation in classic, but it was dispersed. A comment on Allakhazam might say one thing, while one on Caster's Realm might say another, while a person in-game might tell you a third thing. People believed all sorts of different stupid things, and I'm sure someone (besides you) believed the "poof" thing ... but I never once heard anything about charm pets making corpses poof, nor have I seen any mention to it in any of the hundreds of guides/comments I've read trying to find proof that Enchanters aren't classic here ... so I highly doubt that's the reason groups didn't charm.

Again, the reason was that it was harder and more dangerous. It's probably a mix of hard-to-nail-down-exactly mechanics here being not quite classic, and yes also some of it also has to do with Internet connections being flaky. But ...

A) tons of people had good connections (eg. the bulk of the top guild on Bristlebane, Club Fu, used a T1 ... I know because we all played at a shared gaming center); connections can't explain everything, and ...

B) If the change in connection quality changes one class so much ... and again, every other class here fundamentally plays the way it did in classic: Enchanters are the only class played fundamentally differently on P99 (Druids and Necros still primarily solo here, Warriors and Clerics still primarily group, etc.)... and the goal of this place is to make things classic ... maybe we should tweak the one class that isn't classic to be more classic, regardless of the origin of the unclassicness.

[commongood]

There either is or isn’t compelling evidence that the way the devs on p99 have designed and programmed the enchanter class for the past decade is wrong. If there is, I’m sure that will be the reason it gets changed. Not because people in threads like these argue “ask anyone they will all say the same thing” or “everyone who played on live remembers that…”

[DMN]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you agree: in classic Enchanters didn't charm regularly, here's it's expected. And don't try to explain it with nonsense rumours: I've never once heard of charm pets poofing corpses and such, and neither did 90% of the servers players I'm sure.

nonsense rumors? really? im pretty sure charm STILL make corpses poof on p99 even still today, just as they did back then. go charm a shaman/necro/druid or anything that can inflict a high damage DoT, have them fight another mob make sure you pet gets DoTs ticking. break the charm before the last few ticks kill the mob. Since you did no damage to it, and all the damage was inflicted by a mob, the corpse will simplt vanish, no different than a guard swatting a bat in a newb yard.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There was lots of misinformation in classic,

Some things never change....

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but it was dispersed. A comment on Allakhazam might say one thing,

yes, and all it takes is someone to post about how an asp poofed his orcs corpse and everyone i suddely on the bandwagon.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so I highly doubt that's the reason groups didn't charm.

turns out i gave you multiple reasons, but you only bothered to focus on one, the one which you demostrate how little you know of the subject, both then and now. but yes it was a constellation of factors working against charming in groups, not just one.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A) tons of people had good connections (eg. the bulk of the top guild on Bristlebane, Club Fu, used a T1 ... I know because we all played at a shared gaming center); connections can't explain everything, and ...

the vast majority of peope still used dial up for the first year or so. now you are trying to find a person from a class thats is only 5% of the total server population, where only about 10-15% had cable or better. You see problem here with your "observations"? just like i've never seen a black person play a clarinet, surely black people just don't play clarinets.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

B) If the change in connection quality changes one class so much ... and again, every other class here fundamentally plays the way it did in classic: Enchanters are the only class played fundamentally differently on P99

Swarm kitting bards? hmm? the masses of quad or more kiting druids and wizards?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Swarm kitting bards? hmm? the masses of quad or more kiting druids and wizards?

We're just going in circles here, so I won't try to refute you point by point, but I had to say something about that last one ...

Have you not heard about the "unclassic" (and yet I would argue more classic) 25 mob AoE limit? It very much did address unclassic Bard behavior, and is a perfect example of doing exactly what I'm talking about.

[commongood]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have you not heard about the "unclassic" (and yet I would argue more classic) 25 mob AoE limit? It very much did address unclassic Bard behavior, and is a perfect example of doing exactly what I'm talking about.

Just making sure I understand:

You refer to the case with bards where the mechanic was working as it had worked in classic but which lead to “unclassic” behavior where bards (and aoe groups in Chardok) were monopolizing content / gaining unreasonable exp.

How is this comparable to this issue raised on charm? I thought the argument on which side you stand is that the charm mechanic as it is implemented on p99 is incorrectly implemented?

Sorry, just trying to make sure I understand

[loramin]

Originally Posted by commongood [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You refer to the case with bards where the mechanic was working as it had worked in classic but which lead to “unclassic” behavior where bards (and aoe groups in Chardok) were monopolizing content / gaining unreasonable exp.

How is this comparable to this issue raised on charm? I thought the argument on which side you stand is that the charm mechanic as it is implemented on p99 is incorrectly implemented?

Throughout this whole conversation (not just in this thread) I've asserted one thing, that I'm sure of because I played in classic: Enchanters here aren't classic!

What I haven't said is why: I leave that to smarter folks than myself, ie. the classic researchers here like Dolalin (who've suggested something about channeling and/or resists). "But how can you know if it's wrong if you don't know what's wrong?" I hear you ask.

Imagine your buddy made a Street Fighter 2 emulator, and he invites you over to play. Your other buddies are already playing, and you notice whenever anyone plays Ryu, they don't dragon punch. You ask why and everyones says "dragon punch sucks, so we're not using it."

Now, do you need to know the exact number of points of damage the original Ryu dragon punch did in the original code to say something's wrong? Do you need to know any other mechanics, like how hits and misses work? Or can you just say "in the original Street Fighter 2, dragon punching was good, and people used it: therefore, something isn't right about this emulator?"

[DMN]

The rabbit hole rectifying "unclassicness", as a result of people simply playing the game differently in 2022 due to player knowledge/tecnhology improving, is bottomless.