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#51
02-03-2021, 06:26 PM
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No gear increases the DPS of DoTs. Only a few pieces of gear allow you to cast more DoTs. Melee DPS varies WILDLY based off of gear. I think the bridge that gaps peoples different levels that melee falls off is entirely subject to their gear. Melee shaman falls off at 20 if youre in banded and a fine steel spear. Melee falls off at 40 if you're in twink gear. Shaman DoTs felt worse than nuking to me until EB and plague leveling on green. | |||
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#52
02-03-2021, 07:12 PM
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I find it hard to believe lvl 30+ shaman who are just purely meleeing are killing mobs in under 40 or so seconds. | |||
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#53
02-03-2021, 11:01 PM
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Here are the logs for my level 24 Cleric going against a level 25 Mob, https://wiki.project1999.com/Deputy_Keld . He is a yellow, and a bit of an undercon for his level. Obviously I would be hitting a blue mob more often. Please note I did slow the mob on my 60 Shaman so I wouldn't have to worry about dying:
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:19 2021] Auto attack on. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 16 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] Deputy Keld kicks YOU for 2 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:22 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 14 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:27 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:29 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 48 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:31 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 16 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:32 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 28 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:33 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 34 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:36 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:38 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld parries! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:40 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 26 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:43 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 20 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:44 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 23 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:45 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:45 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:47 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:50 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 46 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:51 2021] Deputy Keld tries to kick YOU, but misses! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:52 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 6 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:54 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 44 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:48:56 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:48:59 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:01 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 41 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:03 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:06 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 2 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] You have become better at Dodge! (61) [Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld ripostes! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:10 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:13 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:15 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:17 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:19 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:20 2021] You have become better at Dodge! (62) [Wed Feb 03 18:49:20 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 52 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:22 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 36 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:22 2021] Deputy Keld bashes YOU for 9 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:26 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:29 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:29 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:31 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:32 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 41 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:32 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:33 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:33 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld ripostes! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:36 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:38 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:40 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:42 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 22 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:44 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:45 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 12 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:47 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 42 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:49 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 6 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:52 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] Deputy Keld kicks YOU for 4 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 15 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 33 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 32 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:49:59 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:01 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 8 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:03 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 2 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:05 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 36 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:08 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:10 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:12 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:15 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:17 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:19 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:21 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 38 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:26 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss! [Wed Feb 03 18:50:28 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 26 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:31 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 32 points of damage. [Wed Feb 03 18:50:31 2021] You have slain Deputy Keld! As you can see, I did at least 815 damage within 2 minutes and 11 seconds. At level 24, a Shaman's best DoT is https://wiki.project1999.com/Envenomed_Breath . To kill the same mob with Envenomed Breath, you would need to cast it four times. This would take a total of 28 ticks, which is 168 seconds, or 2 minutes and 48 seconds. My Cleric did more DPS with white damage than the level 24 DoT, using Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a Poison Wind Censor. I don't have a 30s priest to do a similar test, but remember Shamans get a 30% haste at level 29, and a damage table boost at 30, both of which are considerable increases to DPS.
__________________
Shamwowi Wipesalot (60 SHM) | Bazgek Bonebreaker (60 SK) | Sznake Pliszken (52 MNK) | Laanfear (30 ENC)
Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog | ||
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#54
02-04-2021, 01:57 AM
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__________________
Lobnor Feverhever- 60 Shaman <Kingdom>
Carrying on the memory of a fallen friend. Kyofu "The Cursed" Masuta- 60 Monk <Kingdom> Never met a good quest he didn't have to do twice. | |||
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#55
02-04-2021, 06:50 AM
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__________________
Shamwowi Wipesalot (60 SHM) | Bazgek Bonebreaker (60 SK) | Sznake Pliszken (52 MNK) | Laanfear (30 ENC)
Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog | |||
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#56
02-04-2021, 07:45 AM
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Shamans can powerlevel their other toons.
__________________
Lobnor Feverhever- 60 Shaman <Kingdom>
Carrying on the memory of a fallen friend. Kyofu "The Cursed" Masuta- 60 Monk <Kingdom> Never met a good quest he didn't have to do twice. | |||
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#57
02-04-2021, 01:10 PM
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Looking at your data/calculations though, I see one key omission: we Shaman have two DoT lines, not one: Envenomed Bolt: 30 + 27/ 6s for 42s = 219/42s = 5.2 DPS Affliction: 30 + 6/6s for 126s = 156/126s = 1.2 DPS Total DoT damage: 5.2 + 1.2 = 6.4 DPS Melee: 815 damage/131s = 5.2 + 1.23 = 6.2 DPS So unless 6.2 > 6.4 ... your data supports my point [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But look, as I keep trying to say, melee damage doesn't tell the whole story. There are three viable Shaman solo styles (modulo charm), and that the "right" one will vary. The Shaman's melee damage output does influence their strategy: a Shaman with a Granite Face Grinder and a Cloak of Flame will want to melee more than the Shaman with the rusty spear ... but in both cases that melee damage is only one part of the equation.
__________________
Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details. | |||
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#58
02-04-2021, 01:31 PM
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I did disprove your point. Your claim was that melee is miniscule, such as 30% of your total damage or less. 6.2 is very close to 6.4 (over 90%), and as I said at the top, I was fighting a yellow mob. This means I will naturally miss more. If I was fighting a level 20 or 21 mob, I would probably be more around 6.5. Also remember my Cleric is a Human, so a Troll/Ogre/Barbarian with a STR buff would increase damage a bit as well. I also mention that a level 30 Shaman gets a big boost in DPS with Quickness (30% Haste) and the damage table increase. They also get a better slow, which means less damage taken while meleeing. I did not forget about the plague line. The issue with the lower level plague spells is it just does such little damage it usually isn't worth casting. 3 Envenomed Breaths + 1 Plague is going to do 813 damage total, which wouldn't kill the mob above. You would still need to hit it once or twice with melee. And since Plague needs a full 2.1 minutes to deal it's damage, you wouldn't be saving much time. At best you would get back to the same time it would take to kill the mob with melee. A yellow mob would also have a good chance at resisting those spells, which you aren't taking into account. Melee cannot be resisted, so it is also more consistent. 3 Envenomed Breaths + 1 Plague costs you 375 mana. On my Cleric with decent twink gear, I only have something like 650 mana. That means you are spending over half your mana pool on one kill. Since Cannibalize is around half mana for HP, you would need to cannibalize at least 500 HP to mostly get your mana back from that fight. 500 HP is also over 50% of your HP pool at that level, so at the end of the day you are taking about the same damage, either from the mob or from cannibalize. I do not have a 30ish Shaman to be able to provide raw data on average damage taken face tanking vs. cannibalizing, but I did level my Shaman from 1-60 in 2016-2017 using mostly melee until my 40s. I have very clear memory of Meleeing and slow tanking being more HP/Mana efficient than root/rotting. This is because resistances are less of a factor. Slow costs a lot less mana than the number of DoTs needed to kill the mob, so resistances aren't as big of a deal there. Heals are unresistable, so you do not need to worry about that at all. And with face tanking, you only need to root if you are trying to prevent the monster from running into other mobs, so you save mana on roots too.
__________________
Shamwowi Wipesalot (60 SHM) | Bazgek Bonebreaker (60 SK) | Sznake Pliszken (52 MNK) | Laanfear (30 ENC)
Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog | ||||
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#59
02-04-2021, 03:00 PM
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I didn't read all the past entries so excuse me if I'm missing one of your points.
A "Melee shaman" certainly depends on what you are killing and your gear. Early spells are horrid so you do a lot of plunking. Later your spells get better but the mobs hit harder. I found a spot where I only needed to kill 2 guards every 6 mins so affliction/tainted rotting with an occasional DD or two was the ideal way to keep them down. Mind you, I had horrible gear so every hit I took I considered a 50% mana drain in my mid 30's. At least it taught root management. Now take that same scenario, give the player unlimited mobs to pull and a fungi with real haste and a GFG (or whatever) and the outcome changes dramatically. Some players will even burn DS pots so the window for meleeing stuff even up to 50 can be quite efficient. You do end up face-clicking/tanking mobs at times into the high 50's and torp solo killers live in this zone but mainly based on how amazing torp/slow work compared to root. I don't think with the current state of the game any sham is unable to do this based on race. There is an argument even with the current state of FSI that an ogre is 1/3rd more efficient. That said, with the way procs work and how JBB clicks won't impact that ratio so long as the melee button is flashing I think the best JBB weapon is likely a Barbarian mallet. The higher the mob you are fighting the less likely you will hit with your dismal melee stats or at least for a decent amount of white damage. Meanwhile a 260dd or whatever proc is very solid extra damage; its basically a double JBB click. All this to said, I will not die on a hill for any of these opinions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. My sham has been perpetually 59, Lol. | ||
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Last edited by Snaggles; 02-04-2021 at 03:06 PM..
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#60
02-04-2021, 03:19 PM
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Now you can cherry pick the data by arguing over which spells to use, or you can go find a new parse of a level 27 vs. a very low blue ... or whatever. Changing the goalposts won't change the blatantly obvious fact that as a caster Shaman are going to generally do more damage with spells than melee (especially the higher level you get). I'll say it one last time, and then I'm done with this thread: there are three Shaman play styles, and they all have value. Which one is optimal has to do with tons of factors; your melee damage output is only one. If you weigh all of those factors, you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that tanking for every mob you ever face is sub-optimal (even with a great melee weapon and haste). The details will vary, but I'm still convinced that as a caster class Shaman follow the general pattern of all casters: the more your level goes up, the more your melee damage becomes less and less of your total DPS. Hell, as Snaggles reminded me, from 45+ it's guaranteed Shaman melee damage will be the minority (unless you are an Iksar, sorry), because there is no weapon in the game with the DPS to match the JBB. Don't play a Shaman (or any Priest) if you want to beat on things and have that beating be meaningful for your character's career: play a hybrid.
__________________
Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details. | |||
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Last edited by loramin; 02-04-2021 at 03:46 PM..
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