Why do guilds use DKP?

[Vaye]

Originally Posted by druidbob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.

The problem stems from having guilds that are too big. Being apart of a zerg force that trivializes content sounds pretty boring to me which is why I've never joined a zerg guild. People do indeed seem to forget that this is a GAME and is supposed to be fun. They're too busy trying to impress their 13-year-old selves with their pixel gains and treating the game like a damn job to compensate for something.

A small guild raiding where people depend on you for your role and you're actually expected to play the game is what's fun for me. Fun should always be the goal, not pixels. So it doesn't really matter what ends up dropping or how "fair" it is that one person got an item over another, especially if they're a friend and a solid guildie--you should be happy they are progressing, and satisfied you had fun and your teamwork paid off.

If you have a situation where people don't come to raids unless it benefits them, then you have a shitty guild with trash people, but that's expected in big guilds where ppl don't really care about each other and are just in it for the loot. I have respect for Savage's old system where people had to duel for drops. The better player wins. Seems fair to me.

Hope this clears things up.

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by Vaye [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem stems from having guilds that are too big. Being apart of a zerg force that trivializes content sounds pretty boring to me which is why I've never joined a zerg guild. People do indeed seem to forget that this is a GAME and is supposed to be fun. They're too busy trying to impress their 13-year-old selves with their pixel gains and treating the game like a damn job to compensate for something.

A small guild raiding where people depend on you for your role and you're actually expected to play the game is what's fun for me. Fun should always be the goal, not pixels. So it doesn't really matter what ends up dropping or how "fair" it is that one person got an item over another, especially if they're a friend and a solid guildie--you should be happy they are progressing, and satisfied you had fun and your teamwork paid off.

If you have a situation where people don't come to raids unless it benefits them, then you have a shitty guild with trash people, but that's expected in big guilds where ppl don't really care about each other and are just in it for the loot. I have respect for Savage's old system where people had to duel for drops. The better player wins. Seems fair to me.

Hope this clears things up.

If only the meta allowed for small guilds. Agree with the sentiment though Rustle in 2017 was the most fun I had on P99.

[Littul Jonn]

Originally Posted by Nexii [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If only the meta allowed for small guilds. Agree with the sentiment though Rustle in 2017 was the most fun I had on P99.

QFT!

UNROOT THE DRAGONS! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Littul Jonn]

Originally Posted by druidbob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.

lol give it a try! Put a /random loot system in place in your guild and see how many people show up to kill bosses they don't need loot from. These dragons have been on farm for the past 5 years so maybe your first kill on a tough dragon was exciting, but will it get your main tank or 3 extra clerics out of bed at 4am on a Tuesday if they don't get paid in some form of reward? Probably not.

Fun is a matter of opinion though so if you have a guild full of people who all enjoy the game the same way then awesome [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[apathe]

Originally Posted by druidbob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.

The logic collapses when you consider there is a substantial amount of effort required outside of just showing up and participating in an engage in order to contest and kill a target. Without DKP, you put the majority of the burden on a select few willing to dedicate time and energy above and beyond with minimal to zero reward. Showing up for the kill is only a portion of the requirement.

Tracking, racing, farming consumables, etc.

E.g. Statue race in Kael requires tracking and sitting at a race line for hours on end. At a moment's notice, racers need to be able to run for the Statue. In order to be competitive, it's basically a requirement to practice the race in addition to participating. Even with DKP as an incentive, most guilds have difficulty finding a diverse set of members will to go through the effort.

Most of the rest just have to be ready to log in and participate in the kill.

Even the most laid back, generous, and good willed will eventually grow tired of what amounts to dedicating vast amounts of their time for zero return. Even if they did it for their friends, guilds see a lot of players show up once a blue moon, leave the guild or even just disappear completely. Especially so in the larger guilds.

[Jimjam]

From a behavioural perspective dkp is operant conditioning. Each time you attend a raid you receive a reward, which encourages that behaviour to be repeated (see skinners rats).

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From a behavioural perspective dkp is operant conditioning. Each time you attend a raid you receive a reward, which encourages that behaviour to be repeated (see skinners rats).

Yeah, and its not a bad thing.

When you have rewards that are highly desirable and also suffer from scarcity, people in general act like assholes. They are selfish, ruthless, and irrational in the pursuit of the scarce reward.

DKP is a way of channeling all that selfishness into behavior that benefits the community (guild) unit as a whole. If you're going to regularly raid high end content in an MMO, some form of a token economy like this has proven to be the most sensible approach for literally the entire history of the genre.

This is why loot council is seen as something only for tight knit small groups of people. If you have a smaller community who agrees on a common goal and mostly knows each other well and operate with mutual respect, then you can just award loot based on a form of "need" that meets both the needs of individuals and the group. The bigger a guild gets the more clique-y and impersonal it becomes and then requires a more objective and transparent approach to distributing the prizes, or everyone will start to hate and distrust each other and slowly leave for a guild that does DKP.

In Everquest, you need numbers. While many mobs CAN be killed with lower numbers, the reality of bagging them consistently and repeatedly tends to require bigger rosters, so loot council for our purposes is out.

The failures of using RNG, aka the game's own /random roll system, have been well documented in the thread and really should be self-evident to anyone who has played enough to be posting on this forum.

If raiding isn't something you're interested in doing, that's perfectly understandable. But after twenty plus years I don't know how people can't recognize WHY dkp is the default approach to distributing raid loot. But I think OP is trolling.

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Serious question? Wouldn’t it be more fun/exciting/fair to continue to use the /random function the game provides vs a player made point system? This is one of the turn off o have with joining a raiding guild. It’s already stressful enough trying to land targets and not get into a lawyerquest situation, why add a complex currency system to add to the stress? I get the concept of dkp...ppl in the guild who track or do other unseen assistance to the guild should get some sort of incentive vs a casual who shows up for one raid a month, but shouldn’t we seriously reconsider the use of dkp and it’s function?

People put in more time than others and dont want to be subjected to random joe showing up once a month and spitting out a 99 on a /random. Guilds need the warm body regulars to be rewarded for their extra time, DKP provides a built in additional 'reward' toward their pixel goals.

I am a super casual player, outside observation.

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Knuckle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People put in more time than others and dont want to be subjected to random joe showing up once a month and spitting out a 99 on a /random. Guilds need the warm body regulars to be rewarded for their extra time, DKP provides a built in additional 'reward' toward their pixel goals.

I am a super casual player, outside observation.

Since I can't edit, a super important secondary reason that 100% is why DKP is in place, is to get people to show up for raids where there is nothing for them to win or they already got the piece they wanted. Your building up points towards a future raid, creating delayed gratification to incentivize the warm bodies and helping keep your numbers up.

I also understand a lot of people raid to be social and help their pals out, that isn't a guaranteed thing to occur with 40+ elf sim pixel hunters on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

[Nexii]

Random on everything would be fine if you could sell loot rights.