For a Shaman who wants to melee level, do I need to be Ogre/Troll?

[Snaggles]

I didn't read all the past entries so excuse me if I'm missing one of your points.

A "Melee shaman" certainly depends on what you are killing and your gear. Early spells are horrid so you do a lot of plunking. Later your spells get better but the mobs hit harder. I found a spot where I only needed to kill 2 guards every 6 mins so affliction/tainted rotting with an occasional DD or two was the ideal way to keep them down. Mind you, I had horrible gear so every hit I took I considered a 50% mana drain in my mid 30's. At least it taught root management.

Now take that same scenario, give the player unlimited mobs to pull and a fungi with real haste and a GFG (or whatever) and the outcome changes dramatically. Some players will even burn DS pots so the window for meleeing stuff even up to 50 can be quite efficient. You do end up face-clicking/tanking mobs at times into the high 50's and torp solo killers live in this zone but mainly based on how amazing torp/slow work compared to root.

I don't think with the current state of the game any sham is unable to do this based on race. There is an argument even with the current state of FSI that an ogre is 1/3rd more efficient. That said, with the way procs work and how JBB clicks won't impact that ratio so long as the melee button is flashing I think the best JBB weapon is likely a Barbarian mallet. The higher the mob you are fighting the less likely you will hit with your dismal melee stats or at least for a decent amount of white damage. Meanwhile a 260dd or whatever proc is very solid extra damage; its basically a double JBB click.

All this to said, I will not die on a hill for any of these opinions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. My sham has been perpetually 59, Lol.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is an argument even with the current state of FSI that an ogre is 1/3rd more efficient.

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

Ogre is funny, and its largest effect appears psychological: There are players who think picking Ogre turns 'em into some sort of Norrathian super hero. It isn't real, but because they think it's real, they end up doing more with the Ogre than they'd even attempt otherwise. Remember that "hidden stats" guy from a few years ago? They're out there.

Danth

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

Ogre is funny, and its largest effect appears psychological: There are players who think picking Ogre turns 'em into some sort of Norrathian super hero. It isn't real, but because they think it's real, they end up doing more with the Ogre than they'd even attempt otherwise. Remember that "hidden stats" guy from a few years ago? They're out there.

Danth

There's no evidence out there that an Ogre can kill anything a non-ogre can't, but having played eligible Ogre classes as both an Ogre/Non-ogre the advantage is most certainly real, especially at 60 when you're done leveling.

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[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

I mean...it's not MY argument [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] . I just know it is one.

Personally I'm a pick what you like the look of the best, kind of gamer. Hence the erudite paladin. Hell, half the time I can hardly see at night.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean...it's not MY argument [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, to clear up any confusion--I did not mean to imply it was your argument. I was only asking you to relay the particulars because you have heard it and I have not. If you don't want your forum handle associated with such absurdity, I understand.

Crede: I ain't claiming Ogre doesn't have a modest advantage--it does, on the order of a few per cent as demonstrated through testing such as that done by Shamwowi. However, the specific "1/3 more" quoted claim seems absurd unless it references some very specific, cherry-picked situation, so it peaked my interest.

Danth

[Snaggles]

I understand that FSI was changed so that rather than being "immune" ogres in one of the three bash scenarios they are not stunned. That was the nod to the 1/3rd scenario.

IIRC:
Bashed and stunned (ogre)
Bashed and interrupted (all vulnerable)
Bash and just damaged/not interrupted (none vulnerable)

Frankly, rolling torp with a mob slowed 75% with a bash timer on like 40 seconds if you die from not being an ogre there are other factors more likely to kill you. Your ISP, mob melee RNG, a random fizzle, that 2nd whiskey but how so delicious, etc.

All that said, glad we have added the legal footnotes. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Note: Yes poor phrasing on my behalf. NOT 1/3rd more efficient. 1/3rd more efficient at not getting bashed stunned. So yea...fractions of a percent if that, of overall efficiency. Likely never realized.

[DMN]

if the sunken cost fallacy and confirmation bias had a baby:

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no evidence out there that an Ogre can kill anything a non-ogre can't, but having played eligible Ogre classes as both an Ogre/Non-ogre the advantage is most certainly real, especially at 60 when you're done leveling.

[Foxplay]

Personally I wouldn't waste your time trying to make a class level or play in a way it's not meant to. Even if you do race is not going to matter as much as gear. And even then even with all the twink gear possible a melee shaman or melee cleric or any caster class is still going to be very lack luster

As for endgame again race is not as important as gear. A barb shaman with raid gear and 1k+ AC is going to have an easier time than an ogre shaman with crap gear and junk AC

Secondly at endgame the best shamans are the ones that can keep up with constantly casting and chaining spells while generating Mana and keeping torpor always up.

TLDR; pick which race you like to look at. Worry about gear and later on patience with forever casting