For a Shaman who wants to melee level, do I need to be Ogre/Troll?

[kuuky]

Seems like someone just can't let it go. HMM where have I read that before?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by kuuky [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems like someone just can't let it go. HMM where have I read that before?

Correcting bad information is what I am doing. Your not contributing at all, just acting silly.

[clacbec]

on red my shm is fsi ogre .

[loramin]

P.S. Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Shaman melee damage is completely, 100% meaningless.

What I keep saying is that, because Shaman deal significantly less melee damage than their other two damage sources, it's only one factor in the equation of what style you should use (Shaman tank vs. pet tank vs. root/rot; let's pretend Shaman never get charm).

Look, even if we make up numbers and say pet damage = 1/3, melee damage = 1/3, DoT damage = 1/3 ... you still wouldn't want to melee all the time. Why? Because some mobs will hit so hard that if you melee them to get that extra 1/3 damage, you will need far more mana to heal yourself up afterwards (vs. if you just rooted the mob and didn't melee).

If your options are "do 2/3 damage, only have to cast a root or two, and be at ful HP/50m after a fight", or "do 3/3 damage, but wind up completely OOM and not full HP after", it doesn't matter that you can do more damage by meleeing ... you'll get more/faster XP over time by not meleeing, and saving yourself all the mana you would have spent on healing (and slowing the mob, and hasting yourself, and berserking yourself, and casting AC buffs on yourself).

But again, I very suspicious of the idea that at 21+(ish) melee makes up even 1/3 of a Shaman's DPS output. And regardless, it's not even as simple as "how much do I do in melee vs. how much does the mob do?" There are all sorts of other factors, like whether your pet can tank it (pets heal faster than PCs), whether the mob casts (and you want to interrupt it with melee), etc.

[Jimjam]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

Yes, and I believe one important point was lost in our discussion, which was probably my fault. Shaman melee isn't very good if you are running around with banded armor, no haste item, and a weapon with a 0.33 ratio. And I am not trying to argue about how it worked on live. I played a warrior from 1999 to 2005, so I can't say how Shamans worked back then.

I am simply pointing out priest melee, especially Shaman melee, is actually pretty good on P99 with a haste item and a poison wind censor or granite face grinder until your 40s. On P99 it is quite easy to get those items, even as a new player. It isn't like you need to spend 100k to get to a good spot with melee. It typically is better than yout DoTs, which are honestly quite bad until your 40s. But obviously the DoTs are better if you have really bad gear.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, and I believe one important point was lost in our discussion, which was probably my fault. Shaman melee isn't very good if you are running around with banded armor, no haste item, and a weapon with a 0.33 ratio. And I am not trying to argue about how it worked on live. I played a warrior from 1999 to 2005, so I can't say how Shamans worked back then.

I am simply pointing out priest melee, especially Shaman melee, is actually pretty good on P99 with a haste item and a poison wind censor or granite face grinder until your 40s. On P99 it is quite easy to get those items, even as a new player. It isn't like you need to spend 100k to get to a good spot with melee. It typically is better than yout DoTs, which are honestly quite bad until your 40s. But obviously the DoTs are better if you have really bad gear.

Honestly, I feel the gear I listed above overperforms on P1999 compared to what it would do on live - and consequently the gear you list is even better again compared to classic times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly, I feel the gear I listed above overperforms on P1999 compared to what it would do on live - and consequently the gear you list is even better again compared to classic times.

You may be right. All I can do is let people know how it currently works on P99, so they can plan accordingly. With the current prices of those items, their current effectiveness, and the ease at which you can farm the plat to get them, it should be a no brainer to use them to level while soloing. Until your 40s at least.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

I'm sure there are some significant differences ... but I'm talking about Project 1999. The only reason I referenced live was to point out that I wasn't some n00b that didn't know how to play the class when I started here (in fact, I literally have tried to "re-create" Loramin 1.0's experience here with Loramin 2.0, in terms of leveling in many of the same places and such) ... but I'm not talking about live, I'm saying on P99 Shaman melee damage is < 1/3 total damage, at least most of the time, once you get past (roughly) 20.

There's a very simple way anyone who wants to can prove me wrong: parse a level 30 Shaman meleeing something, while also parsing their pet and DoT damage. Since all I have to go on is one subjective experience leveling a Shaman (with a now impossible weapon), I'd certainly welcome more objective evidence.

But until such evidence is presented, I'm sticking to my subjective experience.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks

Agreed. But even with a BSH at 35 ... my experience was that it too stunk. Well, not stunk (I'd be lying if I said I didn't notice the procs; it's a JBB click at a much lower level!) ... but just not enough to outweigh DoT/pet damage. I still often found it more efficient not to melee as a result, or to do mixtures (eg. trying to "joust" for a proc while root/rotting or pet tanking).

But again, happy to change my mind if someone shows me a parse of (say) a 35 Shaman with a good ratio weapon and haste clearly doing more damage than pet/DoTs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, I am not sure why Loramin keeps bringing up pets. No where have I said a melee focused Shaman should not be using their pet. When a melee focused Shaman reaches level 34, they use melee and their pet. When I say DoTs, I am referring to Shaman spell DoTs. I understand the inclination to say pets are also DoTs, but I don't normally see people confuse actual DoTs with pets. The point is simply than Shaman spell DoTs are pretty weak until Plague and Envenomed Bolt. They cost a lot of mana and deal low damage. That is one reason why Shaman melee can give low level DoTs a run for their money in terms of comparable DPS.