For a Shaman who wants to melee level, do I need to be Ogre/Troll?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not sure why people keep saying Shamans can't melee well past 20. They have the same offensive skill cap as warriors sub level 50. Couple that with their ability to haste themselves and buff their strength, they do more white damage than DoT damage until level 40, when mobs get a big boost to HP, AC, and Damage. Shaman DoTs really suck until you get Plague and Envenomed Bolt. They cost a lot of mana, have poor DPM, and get resisted. The priest damage table does suck, but a granite face grinder or poision wind censor will get you to the damage cap just fine, and they have relatively low delay for a 2H weapon.

The reason why non Torpor Shamans can tank well is because of Slow. That spell alone is reducing damage more effectively than the defensive capabilities of a tank. Shamans can also let their pets off tank because their HP pool is pretty good for a pet, and slow allows the doggo to last even longer.

No race is particularly better than the other in terms of outputting raw melee damage, since you can buff yourself anyway. Obviously an Ogre/Troll have more strength, but STR is one of the easiest stats to stack on cheap gear, and a haste item plus self haste is your main source of white damage increases anyway. And a good weapon of course.

I would personally advise against rolling Iksar due to the lack of JBB. I assume you are not twinking your toon to the teeth with an Epic. Barbarians are generally considered very fashionable. I disagree, but that is just my dislike of the kilts. Melee starts to get rough around the time you can use a JBB, and that item is the best leveling tool you can get to solo to 60. Epic is better, but costs about 100k when you can find it on the market.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure why people keep saying Shamans can't melee well past 20.

Two very different things are being conflated: tanking (ie. standing in front of a mob and taking damage) and dealing melee damage. I can't speak for anyone else, but what I was saying is that Shamans or Clerics (or Druids) can't do meaningful melee damage after (something like) level 20.

And I stand by that statement; again, I used a weapon that doesn't even exist on P99 anymore (a Barbarian Spiritist's' Hammer prior to the proc nerf), and I still couldn't do significant damage relative to my other damage sources. My DoTs and my "best DoT" (ie. pet) just did more, at every level after (roughly) 20.

But I'm certainly not saying is "Shaman should never tank after level 20". Whether or not they should do that has everything to do with how hard the mob is hitting vs. how much mana it would cost to avoid those hits (eg. by rooting instead). And if you are tanking as part of your overall strategy, of course you want to hit the mob with something while you do. But again, that damage will be miniscule compared to what your DoTs/pet do.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two very different things are being conflated: tanking (ie. standing in front of a mob and taking damage) and dealing melee damage. I can't speak for anyone else, but what I was saying is that Shamans or Clerics (or Druids) can't do meaningful melee damage after (something like) level 20.

And I stand by that statement; again, I used a weapon that doesn't even exist on P99 anymore (a Barbarian Spiritist's' Hammer prior to the proc nerf), and I still couldn't do significant damage relative to my other damage sources. My DoTs and my "best DoT" (ie. pet) just did more, at every level after (roughly) 20.

But I'm certainly not saying is "Shaman should never tank after level 20". Whether or not they should do that has everything to do with how hard the mob is hitting vs. how much mana it would cost to avoid those hits (eg. by rooting instead). And if you are tanking as part of your overall strategy, of course you want to hit the mob with something while you do. But again, that damage will be miniscule compared to what your DoTs/pet do.

This is incorrect. Shaman Melee damage is superior to Shaman DoTs until at least level 40. Shaman DoT DPM is low at lower levels, and they have a decent chance of getting resisted unless you use your resistance debuffs, which cost even more mana and can also be resisted. Healing is more mana efficient since it cannot be resisted, and does not need to be supplemented with other debuffs.

The reason why you had a bad experience with your Barbarian Spiritist Hammer is because the ratio sucks.

At level 34 with Quickness and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps you have 52% Haste. Your max weapon damage level 30+ on the Priest damage table is 26. A Granite face Grinder is a 26/23.7 with 52% Haste, which is a 1.1 ratio. The Spiritist Hammer is a 22/28.3, which is only a 0.78 ratio. You were doing 25% less white damage than you otherwise could have. The proc would not make up for that loss unless you got lucky with RNG.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is incorrect. Shaman Melee damage is superior to Shaman DoTs until at least level 40. Shaman DoT DPM is low at lower levels, and they have a decent chance of getting resisted unless you use your resistance debuffs, which cost even more mana and can also be resisted. Healing is more mana efficient since it cannot be resisted, and does not need to be supplemented with other debuffs.

The reason why you had a bad experience with your Barbarian Spiritist Hammer is because the ratio sucks.

At level 34 with Quickness and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps you have 52% Haste. Your max weapon damage level 30+ on the Priest damage table is 26. A Granite face Grinder is a 26/23.7 with 52% Haste, which is a 1.1 ratio. The Spiritist Hammer is a 22/28.3, which is only a 0.78 ratio. You were doing 25% less white damage than you otherwise could have. The proc would not make up for that loss unless you got lucky with RNG.

Theoryquesting here, is the hammer better in the context of a 60 shaman facetanking big game while torpored (self slowed, fewer swings so more procs per swing, so procs are a larger portion of dps and mob ac maybe mitigates melee better)?

[Danth]

Keep in mind Loramin's talking about the pre-nerf version of that hammer which had an absurd proc rate.

[Vexenu]

Priest melee is underrated if you can twink them well with decent gear and a nice ratio 2HB. I did it with a Cleric (Dwarf wearing mostly Dwarven Plate). Was very easy going until the high 30s or so. A Shaman who can actually slow mobs, haste himself and regen should be viable in melee until the 50s (or until you get a JBB/epic, as was mentioned).

[Berendar]

Having levelled an Ogre, Troll and Barbarian mostly melee, the stun becomes really annoying in your day to day combat life on the Troll and Barbarian.

Maybe it was the playing all of the races that made it more pronounced whereas you may not notice if you have nothing to compare it to, but going back to a Troll after playing an Ogre as a melee Shaman was very noticeable with the stuns.

[NegaStoat]

I bit into the 'just gotta melee' hype with leveling my shaman initially a long while back, using the traditional budget Poison Wind Censer and as much HP / AC as I could stack on the character. It was rough going, but by picking out low blue level old world mobs and staying patient, reaching level 34 happened. At that point my array of spells + pet allowed me to just level in a more traditional caster fashion, using root, DoT's and DDs, slow, and the pet.

It took me a small bit of time to figure out the best routine of spells and their cast order to be the most efficient vs mob level + HPs they had, and once this was accomplished my kill rate and leveling speed was very rapid. This was on an Iksar Shaman. At level 35 I sold melee oriented gear and picked up effective budget casting gear focused on wisdom, HP and Mana stats along with AC. I kept seeing posts of people stating that they fought in melee with their solo shaman to 50+ and I couldn't figure out the value to it. If you're able to mow exp targets down as fast as a Necromancer or Quad kiting druid of the same level using just spells and the pet, that seems to be the way to go.

[Toothed]

As someone else mentioned you can raise your stats with gear and your buffs to a point that your str,sta,agi,dex isn't really gonna be an issue. The main difference you are gonna find is the difference in gear available like the snare neck, JBB, totemic armor, etc.

I would say iksar is a pretty good choice for the extra regen, AC, and being medium sized.

I prefer a troll for Grobb which is like the best town in the game. Trolls also get the regen, can wear plate (totemic) and have SLAM.

[DMN]

If you planned to melee from 1-60, troll would probably be a significant peg up from iksar largely due to the snare necklace and because of it, you intentionally focus on fighting mobs that flee and save yourself all the mana from the last 20-25% of the HP of the mob. Additionally, relative to iskar you'd also have access to slam... don't matter for damage but would also interrupt casters(big deal if you are facing them in melee) and if you time it right you can also reduce the melee damage you are taking. (count the seconds between swings and bash just before the mobs swing timer is about to come due).

You can certainly level all the way to 60 meleeing and Iksar. I wouldn't describe it as "efficient" however, troll would be significantly better, but Iksar wouldn't be significantly different from any other race but troll. Other than troll racial stuff, it's all going to come down to your gear = efficiency.