NPC Push

[Rygar]

Literally ignoring all the vox posts about push not working, piranha ledge comment is laughable. Where does it mention push to interrupt? Could simply be it bashes or absorbs the spell damage for you since its taunting.

Plenty of folks talking about needing to bash phinny guards to interrupt.

Keep dreaming of push to interrupt npc fantasies tho

[Croco]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Literally ignoring all the vox posts about push not working, piranha ledge comment is laughable. Where does it mention push to interrupt? Could simply be it bashes or absorbs the spell damage for you since its taunting.

Plenty of folks talking about needing to bash phinny guards to interrupt.

Keep dreaming of push to interrupt npc fantasies tho

They aren't dreams, they're memories of playing on live in era on a monk that would regularly interrupt casters with my dual fists after I got the monk epic.

It was a tactic that was so well known and commonplace that they literally gave monks a knockback AA ability in Luclin that we used to reliably interrupt casters.

Gleaning useful information from peoples comments on EQ back in '99-'02 is incredibly difficult because as you've helpfully pointed out people made comments back then with sometimes little more than guesses about how things worked. The comments from people who clearly detail how something worked and having that comment corroborated by multiple people over multiple years are the comments that deserve to be considered truth above others.

There are dozens of examples of people understanding how pushing npc's was used to interrupt spells from '99 into the mid '00s and beyond. Most people didn't think or understand it being a thing because they didn't play a melee class that attacked fast enough to generate the requisite push.

[Rygar]

Show the many posts of the monk community talking of the epic interrupt ability then. Or was this class changing mechanic just kept quiet from everyone for fear of a nerf?

Literally 2 dual wield melee attacking would generate more speed than an epic monk, surely there are thousands of "duh bro just push mobs to interrupt gate what is your problem?"

[unroot]

croco making good points with evidence

people arguing vs him with memory hole strawmans

can we put this bed yet staff

[Rygar]

He didn't post reliable evidence, just claims of memory evidence. On the other hand in my other thread I have actual links to evidence of people saying pushing around mobs does jack shit. Never mind the thousands of parsed hours of logs from EQmac.

[Detoxx]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bumping to try and figure out why, even though several posts and plenty of evidence shows this change was incorrect, it still is not being changed back.

[Rygar]

Those posts literally say mana sieve as well. As a melee, if you push a bunch of mobs while sieving you may clearly think your movement stopped them when in fact the sieve did.

Emu talking about disabling push issues is laughable, clearly talking about challenges of relating a mechanic to certain types of characters.

As is also said, no patch notes relating to push to interrupt. Go on current live and push a mob around, lemme know how that interrupts.

Clear case of cherry picking evidence in hope of relieving butt hurt. Mad confirmed.

[long.liam]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are tons of changes that Verant & Sony put into the game via patches that did not end up in patch notes. They left stuff out of patch notes literally all the time.

Here's a link from a player back in the day that was keeping track himself of changes to various spells and if you go and cross reference those changes with patch notes you find plenty of them not listed in the corresponding patch notes from when they were put in game.

(re: https://web.archive.org/web/20020205.../spdatch.shtml)

That's just from Aug/01 to Jan/02 and there are a number of examples just from changed spells. To say nothing of quests, mechanics, abilities... etc. Just because there are no patch notes saying something changed does not mean it didn't change. There are too many examples to the contrary.

The Official Everquest Patch notes and code dumps from the EQ devs are the most reliable source of information for how the game actually worked. The only source that comes close to that is In era Vidoes and Verified Log files. Everything else is just anecdote that is subject to a heavy dose of skepticism. Unless whatever anecdote you post is backed up by credible sources, I'd say it can be mostly ignored and filed away as a speculative curiosity. It's quite possible that the EQ devs did "ninja" patches during the timeline, but without actual reliable evidence we have no way of Knowing what they did. Defaulting to current live mechanics in most cases is usually best in the absence of reliable data.

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by long.liam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Official Everquest Patch notes and code dumps from the EQ devs are the most reliable source of information for how the game actually worked. The only source that comes close to that is In era Vidoes and Verified Log files. Everything else is just anecdote that is subject to a heavy dose of skepticism. Unless whatever anecdote you post is backed up by credible sources, I'd say it can be mostly ignored and filed away as a speculative curiosity. It's quite possible that the EQ devs did "ninja" patches during the timeline, but without actual reliable evidence we have no way of Knowing what they did. Defaulting to current live mechanics in most cases is usually best in the absence of reliable data.

Yet they changed DN spiders to summon based on one post from Allakhazam 20 years ago. No logs, no Video, no Patch notes. That is cherry picking.

Mobs were able to be pushed. I could find plenty more evidence but the evidence above by me and others is enough. And again, the evidence they used to take away push was based on a completely different coded source. Alkabor had to be recoded from the bottom up to get it on macs.

There are other reasons they wont change it.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Detoxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yet they changed DN spiders to summon based on one post from Allakhazam 20 years ago. No logs, no Video, no Patch notes. That is cherry picking.

A change which came with the condition that it would be reverted if more evidence was provided to the contrary. That change was however shown to be classic.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010805...icID=364.topic

Vlieke
Registered User
Posts: 49
(7/9/01 4:44:28 pm)

Raids
Very soon we will start raiding higher level dungeons, etc. How exciting! Thought it might be worthwhile to share some info I found on posts regarding the topic. By no means am I trying to lay out rules here, simply trying to keep the topic in the forefront because soon it will be a big part of what we do.

Here are some rules for raids, if you are not the leader:

1. Show up, on time, prepared (equipment, maps, resist gear, potions, gems for symbols, fish scales, coffins, etc)).
2. Join the group you are assigned.
3. Be helpful: Buff others (but ask them first).
4. Follow instructions.
5. DO NOT EXPLORE or wander. Stay with the group or in your assigned place.
6. Before raid starts, determine the following and make hotkeys:
- primary assist hotkey
- secondary assist hotkey
- "add" assist hotkey
- special raid hotkeys ("Assist Locz on %t", "Snared %t", "Peeling %t", "Parking %t, back off!", "Incoming %t", "%t has been slowed", "Kiting %t", etc).
- determine the raid-only channel for instructions
- determine the "chat" channel
- name of loot leader
- name of enchanter giving haste
- name of enchanter giving clarity
- name of persons giving focus / DMF / aegiolism / etc
7. get buffed in the proper buff order (junk and lesser buffs first)
8. LISTEN to instructions.
19. FOLLOW instructions.
10. Don't harass the raid leader / puller / peeler / assist people with tells. They are too busy.
11. Don't whine about experience. The purpose of a raid is not experience (thats a "grind" group). Groups are specifically arranged to maximize kill effectiveness, not for divvying up experience evenly.
12. Don't loot unless told to.
13. When fighting:
- follow instructions.
- always assist. Never attack unless you assist. (take personal initiative only when assists have died and announce to others your action using a hotkey / you are told otherwise / dire circumstances require it).
- don't sit just before the pull (MOB may aggro you).
- turn off auto-attack if the MOB enrages. (enrage = autoriposte)
- usually best to keep the chanter's alive (it is OK to emergency heal them)
- learn to "push" caster/healer MOBs so that their casting gets interrupted. This means all tanks but rogues fight on the same side and vector, pushing the MOB backwards, and switch sides as told by the main assist. This technique also makes the raid rogues far more effective.
- avoid aggroing secondary MOBs into the fight.
- only the raid leader calls for "clerics camp" if a wipeout seems possible.
- announce specifically important events: key LDs, key deaths, MOB AE cast times, snare in, emergency heal needs (if your clerics are dead).
- casters only nuke within aggro radius, and after the tanks have secured aggro, to avoid "ping ponging"
- don't push the MOB through a wall, or off a bridge, etc.
14. Group leaders announce mana level /preparedness after the fight.
15. NEVER, EVER, train the camp. Die instead.

Hope this summarizes well.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ok, Vlieke here again. I hope that info was helpful and thought-provoking. As you can see, some groups take a rather militaristic approach to raids, I suppose with good reason. I don't think such a hard-ass approach is inherently necessary, but GOOD ORGANIZATION and PREPARATION is. I would think that pre-raid briefs will be necessary, as well as post-raid debriefs. Sure, they might be boring, but they are a great tool for learning and refining.

For the most part, we've all been either soloing or fighting in smaller (6 or less) guild groups for the duration of our characters' existence(s). Fairly soon this will change, and I have no doubt it will be enjoyable for VF, and our guild will begin to prosper and solidify even more.

Please share your thoughts here. I know Raloth, the High Council and other Officers and members of the guild are interested in getting our raid thang going.

P.S.S. If we need raid leaders, I humbly volunteer.

V.V.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020318...icID=938.topic

Rotep of Lanys
Steel Warrior Contributor
Posts: 23
(12/16/01 7:47:45 am)
Reply
Community Supporter
mob pushing-what is it?
I never heard of this term before. What does it mean to "push a mob"?
Haldainas
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 30
(12/16/01 8:49:48 am)
Reply Re: mob pushing-what is it?
Some high level mobs cannot be interupted by normal stuns and such, giants in kael are a good example. So to imterpt the complete heals, everyone gets on one side of the mob and "pushes" it. As you hit it, it will move back some and most of the time interupt casting, This also works on ToV mobs and other high level encounters.
Haldainas Eviencar

Aeril Droigheann
is a Seasoned Veteran
Posts: 262
(12/17/01 12:56:59 pm)
Reply Re: mob pushing-what is it?
The biggest importance is just positioning. A lot of AE fights have walls that you can hide the casters behind to prevent them from being hit by it. In these situations, it's important to keep the mob from moving beyond the corner so it's AE doesn't hit the casters. If you don't have enough damage to make up for CH/gate then you probably won't have enough to push reliably for an interrupt.
Aeryl Firebrand, Warlord
Aeril Droigheann, 59 Preserver, Semi-Retired
Aerul Cuinnsear, 48 Rogue, Semi-Retired
Undaunted, Xegony

Crayno
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 80
(12/18/01 7:05:19 am)
Reply Re: mob pushing-what is it?
Tried some mob pushing in Kael yesterday,didn't interrupt a single spell [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
May the wolves guide your path
Crayno Wolffang 59 Myrmidon
May your beard grow long and your ale be cold
Braydoc Lifespark 53 Vicar

Solos Stormreaper
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 11
(12/18/01 6:16:46 pm)
Reply
Re: mob pushing-what is it?
Regular melee damage pushes. If you notice when you get hit by a mob, it pushes you back. This happens to a mob as well, I think based on how much damage you do. I'm guessing it's based off of damage, since I noticed monks can do a lot of pushing with their melee.

What I like to do is flank. Surround the mob. This keeps the mob from moving around so much. Here's a sample diagram:


P
|
M
/ \
P P


In this above diagram, the mob should move towards the meleer doing the least damage, according to my theory. If players are doing the same melee damage, then the mob shouldn't be moving at all, since all the pushing is getting countered.


P
\
P - M - P
/
P


In this above diagram, the mob should definitely be moving towards the right. Though, the amount it's being pushed per second would most likely be the same, if all players are doing equal damage, in this diagram below:


P
> M
P



I also have rarely interupted a giant in Kael from casting a heal. It's not good pushing it into a wall, despite popular belief... I play a shaman and druid and usually run to a corner to gate away from a train and know that the wall will help me channel through the hits. Been able to escape some trains while pulling old Chardok this way.

Quote:
The best way i heard to stop a CH is to mana suck them or whatever the PC term is now


Mana sieve or drain it's mana.
___________________________________
Darin Darkstar - Level 60 Barbarian Warlord
Drackoz Darkstar - Level 60 Barbarian Oracle
Solos Stormreaper - Level 58 Halfling Preserver
- Innoruuk Server
Without Knowledge, Skill cannot be focused. Without Skill, Strength cannot be brought to bear. Without Strength, Knowledge may not be applied.

Turom Toesmasher
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 68
(12/20/01 8:44:17 am)
Reply
Re: mob pushing-what is it?
To push a mob effectively, you really need to stack on the main tank. The main tank needs to steer the mob, by facing the direction you want the mob pushed.

It's important for everyone to understand stacking though, as their will be times that you need to switch sides to push the mob another way.

Pushing definately does interrupt spells... a long time ago, I recall doing Vox... we had 2 chanters, one died almost instantly. Having only one chanter left usually means death with Vox, but we were able to stack and push her around enough to prevent CHs. Ended up taking her down with 21 because of the good pushing.
Frrroooaaakkk!

https://web.archive.org/web/20021120...cID=1035.topic

NitaNita
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 76
(7/16/02 4:34:58 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

Re: Western Wastes Dragons
Some of the dragons are deceptively nasty. Mav Sapara, Von, Mraaka, Glati, probably the rest of the Saparas as well.

This is a great place to practice strategies and tactics you'll use in lategame raiding, such as main tanking, pushing gaters, resisting AEs, and the like.

Amanita

Trayvar
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 2
(7/17/02 7:05:46 am)
Reply Re: Western Wastes Dragons
"pushing gaters"

While this works very well for unstunnable mobs mid-game, I really wouldn't suggest it as a great strategy for late-game/end-game mobs. Enchanter sieving works far better, since mobs at that high of a level have such a high channeling skill that they will just regain consentration and continue their casting 99% of the time.

Kael arena, it's been a mixed bag. They regain about 50% of the time from my experiences there. ToV, forget about it. A successful push there has resulted in:

An Ancient Frost Guardian regains consentration and continues it's casting...
An Ancient Frost Guardian gates.

every time I've ever seen it tried.

Enchanters sieving their mana away is the only sure fire method that I've seen work for preventing gaters, other than fighting close enough to their spawn location that is.

End game mobs are even worse than ToV mobs.

It's a good strategy, and will serve you well for a while... but don't expect to ever see it work late and end game.

It's not a strategy to be "practiced" now "for" late/end game, it's a strategy to be "used" now "until" late/end game comes.

Keryath
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 36
(8/7/02 12:43:11 pm)
Reply Re: Western Wastes Dragons
Gflux dragons aren't bad. Everyone needs an instant click effect item, be it jboots, gobo earring, or whatnot. first buff slot need to be the instant click, then the rest of your buffs, and lev/DMF near the bottom. Refresh your instant click whenever it gets dispelled.

As far as pushing gaters, if you push the far enough I've never seen them channel. There are many mobs you do not want to sieve, due to the fact that they're chumps as long as they try to keep casting.

Be very careful in regards to the mobs you grab, and don't have too much faith in those WW guides. Things have changed recently with regards to the sleeper revamps.

Anyhow, what the other guys said, stay the hell away from anything with more than one name; they'll rock you harder than front row tickets at a White Lion concert.