Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Torpor Heals 300 HP per tick, for 4-5 ticks. This is depending on the server tick, when the spell was cast. This means you are gaining 1200-1500 HP, while spending 200 mana. This means each Torpor will net you 400-550 mana, after you factor in the casting cost. So the math is simple: You are gaining 400-550 mana per 24-30 seconds. If you have an HP pool of 3000, and a mana pool of 3000, you will get back to full mana in roughly 4 minutes. It will take you another minute to get back your HP. So at WORST, you will be back at 100% mana and 100% HP in 5 minutes.

This is why extra Troll regeneration isn't that great. 8 additional HP regeneration equals 4800 HP per hour, or FOUR free Torpors. This means Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour. Not very useful overall. Torpor will always be able to quickly restore your HP and Mana bar.

A couple things to add. First, no one mentions how tedious all this is. Like, yes you can Torpor/Cann back from 0 mana to full in a few minutes ... but that's a few minutes of pressing Cann and your insta-click refresher over, and over, and over again (with intermittent Torpor casts). As powerful as it is, don't think it's glamorous (my kingdom for Cann V [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

And second, one other thing about "Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour". Look, if you told me I could save two minutes an hour while XPing I'd be tripping over myself to buy whatever you're selling. But at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A couple things to add. First, no one mentions how tedious all this is. Like, yes you can Torpor/Cann back from 0 mana to full in a few minutes ... but that's a few minutes of pressing Cann and your insta-click refresher over, and over, and over again (with intermittent Torpor casts). As powerful as it is, don't think it's glamorous (my kingdom for Cann V [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

And second, one other thing about "Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour". Look, if you told me I could save two minutes an hour while XPing I'd be tripping over myself to buy whatever you're selling. But at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

Lol I agree, Torporing from low HP and Mana is quite tedious. I still like it though. More interesting than sitting down and going AFK for 10 minutes.

I also agree that saving 2 minutes per hour is much more important when you are XPing to 60. I got Shawl 7 at level 52 to get an additional 600 mana per hour. Pre-Torpor, any HP/Mana regen you can get will increase your efficiency significantly.

The reason why saving 2 minutes becomes less useful with Torpor is because Torpor makes you the most efficient class in the game at regenerating HP and Mana, by a large margin. The only exception may be a cleric Complete Healing themselves with Manastone, but that is limited to the zones in which Manastone works.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

loramin did you respond to this but delete it cause I deleted it? LOL. Sorry. I wanted to refresh my memory on ticks to not waste someone else's time but still found no resolution to the quandry.

Anyway the post:

Where are people getting this 4-5 torpor ticks from? I know i see it on the wiki, but that's not how it should work. Either it should wait for the first tick, and then give you all the ticks eventually or if p99 is simply using seconds duration for the spell and then only giving health on spell duration which overlap with the server ticks, then you'd never get 5 ticks either as you'd have to land the spell the exact moment a tick was happening just to get 4 ticks(which would mean you'd virtually never get 4 ticks either).

So how is this 5 ticks allegedly happening on p99?

I have seen Torpor give me 1500 HP back. It is a thing that happens, and it is not consistent. It depends on when you cast Torpor. I have no idea if this is "classic" or not. I haven't tried to game the system to make it consistent, either. It would be way too much effort, and when you are fighting a hard monster, you don't always have the luxury of waiting to Torpor.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have seen Torpor give me 1500 HP back. It is a thing that happens, and it is not consistent. It depends on when you cast Torpor. I have no idea if this is "classic" or not. I haven't tried to game the system to make it consistent, either. It would be way too much effort, and when you are fighting a hard monster, you don't always have the luxury of waiting to Torpor.

How do you know it depends on when you cast it or that it will take a lot effort if you don't even know what's causing it? Even if it did take a lot of effort, increasing the effectiveness of one of the strongest spells in the game by 25%i s hardly something to walk away from flippantly.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Sacer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, it's like saying c2 is a waste cause you can kill the same thing without, but you do realise more mana = faster kills and if fights are quicker it's safer and you can kill more things? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

May be it's you that speak without having a 60 shaman with torpor. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


edit : oh and yeah I am one of those 60 shaman that wear fungi and bag vindi bp most of the time, and also cast regen on myself

From earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

Just in case that isn't clear: it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill something ... IF you're just going to sit there and do nothing after, while you wait for the respawn. Since Verant never put a ton of named mobs with good loot together in the same room, and mobs with good loot tend to have significant respawn time, there's a practical upper limit to how many such mobs a Shaman can farm at once (and even within that limit there is diminishing returns: you kill the mobs with the best loot first and it gets worse from there).

The "most clustered" nameds I can think of are places like Seb Crypt or PoM A4, where you have several nameds in rooms close together, and if the server isn't busy a single Shaman can do all of them. It's been awhile since I did Crypt, but I do A4 all the time (modulo 22; he's not worth the hassle to me). When I do, I have like half an hour of sitting on my hands after I finish, so there is zero benefit to killing the mobs any faster ... and having 35 minutes to sit on my hands.

So look, you can calculate numbers on the back of a napkin all you want, but ultimately the in-game context matters. If that context is that you're farming HQ ore in Permafrost by killing low level mobs, I'll agree with you: you should Regrowth yourself to kill faster [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And maybe a Troll can even farm 20pp/hour (or whatever) faster at 60 in Permafrost. But to me that doesn't make them the better race at 60, when Ogres can survive more (even if only by the tiniest of fractions) on the hard fights.

[sonofbaal]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From earlier in the thread:


Just in case that isn't clear: it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill something ... IF you're just going to sit there and do nothing after, while you wait for the respawn. Since Verant never put a ton of named mobs with good loot together in the same room, and mobs with good loot tend to have significant respawn time, there's a practical upper limit to how many such mobs a Shaman can farm at once (and even within that limit there is diminishing returns: you kill the mobs with the best loot first and it gets worse from there).

The "most clustered" nameds I can think of are places like Seb Crypt or PoM A4, where you have several nameds in rooms close together, and if the server isn't busy a single Shaman can do all of them. It's been awhile since I did Crypt, but I do A4 all the time (modulo 22; he's not worth the hassle to me). When I do, I have like half an hour of sitting on my hands after I finish, so there is zero benefit to killing the mobs any faster ... and having 35 minutes to sit on my hands.

So look, you can calculate numbers on the back of a napkin all you want, but ultimately the in-game context matters. If that context is that you're farming HQ ore in Permafrost by killing low level mobs, I'll agree with you: you should Regrowth yourself to kill faster [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And maybe a Troll can even farm 20pp/hour (or whatever) faster at 60 in Permafrost. But to me that doesn't make them the better race at 60, when Ogres can survive more (even if only by the tiniest of fractions) on the hard fights.

also don't forget, getting off a spell earlier that wasn't bashed can save health as well.
Do you think in an hour of a hard camp you would save 7000ish health from fsi?

[sonofbaal]

I also just forgot 2 points.

1. Regrowth I assume stacks with turpor? if thats the case then it would further dilute a Trolls regen
2. Turpor removes haste? if yes then you would have to recast it if you were doing some mele carnage.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by sonofbaal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Regrowth I assume stacks with turpor? if thats the case then it would further dilute a Trolls regen

Yes it stacks, and yes it's useful when health/mana regen is critical. But Torpor/Cann is just a way of life as a 60 Shaman, and that produces so much mana that I often don't even bother Regrowth-ing myself.

Originally Posted by sonofbaal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Forgive me since I am not big game shaman, but does tupor act as a CH at level 60? not sure how many HP shaman are rolling with these days.

No, but it comes pretty close: maybe 60-80%-ish, depending on gear/buffs?

Originally Posted by sonofbaal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even even with torpor running unless you are hitting full health, regen is still basically adding health and therefore mana. ...

Yes regen ... whether from Regrowth, from being a Troll, from Fungi Tunics, or even from FT items (eg. Shawl) are all still good even once you have Torpor. Torpor doesn't magically make any of that bad. It's just that Torpor is so good, all those other things pale in comparison, and when you have the Torpor/Cann cycle going anything optional (like wearing a Fungi or casting Regrowth) is often just not worth the trouble.

Originally Posted by sonofbaal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Turpor removes haste? if yes then you would have to recast it if you were doing some mele carnage.

Melee damage is a tiny drop in the bucket for 60 Shaman. Our DoTs (including our best one, our pet) do way, way more, and what little melee damage we do while soloing tends to be in-between casting ... so haste doesn't matter.

[Cen]

Only barbarians can be and wear polar bears so nothing else matters

[Baler]

Thread number 10431,.. Ogres dummies try to argue that troll is inferior

troll regen + regrowth + fungi all STACK, YES THEY ALL STACK

Troll > Ogre

fuck sakes folks there are thread and thread and threads of proof why troll is the king shm race.

Stop grinding ur hammers on the keryboard, it's the only 1 ya got.

[Baler]

And just in case y'all didn't hear it the first time. Once a shaman get's torpor race doesn't matter.

I have a barbarian shaman also.

ps. sorry loramin getting my (another) +1 post count for the day, no disrespect sir.