Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Snaggles]

Yea except a 24 cleric doesn’t have Malo and runners have like 100 hps left in the tank. If you can take the time to click a JBB you can mix in a snare attempt every three or four JBB’s.

This whole thread is a bit silly. Racial perks for a warrior or SK are hardly with the debate. Let alone a torp epic sham getting into a very long battle. Theory crafting is fun but don’t think it’s going to make or break the game...

[Snaggles]

Snare, FSI on a 75% slowed mob, a few mins of standing +12/tick regen. It’s all pretty worthless.

Arguably the best racial perk is the xp bonus a Barbarian has for a game that demands a cruel number of hours to hit max level.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Snare, FSI on a 75% slowed mob, a few mins of standing +12/tick regen. It’s all pretty worthless.

Arguably the best racial perk is the xp bonus a Barbarian has for a game that demands a cruel number of hours to hit max level.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Iksar

It's +8 Regeneration a tick standing compared to Ogres/Barbarians at level 60, not +12.

I have stated multiple times in this thread no racial is make or break for a Torpor Shaman. The OP was basically asking which racials are superior. At the end of the day, neither matter much, but one IS superior from a mathematical and statistical perspective. We are simply deducing which one is better, for people who care about getting the most out of their character. If you don't then it doesn't matter[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DMN]

Well, they don't need to be summoning mobs necessarily. Just dangerous spell casters who flee. And living mobs in chardok don't flee? I did chardok a ton back in the day and all the living mobs there should be flee-enabled.

Also the snare duration like I mentioned above seems bugged. You are right that it should be 6 ticks but right now it'snot getting the proper ticks. At least not when I just tested it. And it's 20% for regular snare 15% for clinging darkness snare.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, they don't need to be summoning mobs necessarily. Just dangerous spell casters who flee. And living mobs in chardok don't flee? I did chardok a ton back in the day and all the living mobs there should be flee-enabled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

The first mob I fought in this video is single, and a living mob. I never rooted him, and he did not flee at 20%. The only thing he will do is gate if he is too far away from his spawn point.

I haven't soloed all the mobs in Chardok yet, so if there is a fleeing mob, that would be great to know. I just haven't seen it yet.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

The first mob I fought in this video is single, and a living mob. I never rooted him, and he did not flee at 20%. The only thing he will do is gate if he is too far away from his spawn point.

I haven't soloed all the mobs in Chardok yet, so if there is a fleeing mob, that would be great to know. I just haven't seen it yet.

It's possible there are some nearby allies in assist range of him but not in LOS. Course it could also just be not classic heh.

[rabids]

This is what I mean when I say mystique. Min/Max is factual, not personal preference. There is a Shaman race that has the best racial bonuses for the Shaman class mathematically and statistically. I have said multiple times in this thread if fashion quest is your preference, that is perfectly fine. No Shaman race will give you a huge advantage. But that isn't Min/Max, that is personal preference and fashion questing.

My point here isnt that barbarian is the best, it is that play styles are different. Nothing mystical about that.

Why are you talking about fungis? My point wasnt that you could get lots of fungis as a casual, it was that anyone can get money. Killing guards, grouping in where ever and winning randoms, farming gems for armor, etc etc. You say that you know a lot about EQ, you should know that you can get money as a casual. You can also farm torpor with a couple of friends. I have done guardian wurms with 3 people, without torpor.

So torpor shammy isnt the same as raiding shammy. Now if we were talking about best race for a high end raiding shammy with lots of BiS and torpor I might agree that ogre is best. But I thought we were talking about torpor shammies, and there is a lot of different kinds of torpor shammies. Not everyone has maxed out resists, not everyone has a shit ton of hp (making the extra effective hp you have from regen count more) and not everyone has or can get snare spears.

There is a lot of snare quotes I could bring up, but I will just say this. I am stupified that we are discussing whether or not snare is any good. Groups can wipe because they have no snare. Snare is good. You say you know a lot about EQ, you should know that snare is good. Our clicky snare is really bad compared to the good ones, but a crappy snare is still good compared to no snare. I would say the burden of proof lays with the party with the opinion that differs from the majority. I think that the majority of EQ players would agree that snare is good. So I wont spend any more time trying to prove to you that snare is good. It just is. Prove me wrong. Speaking of proof brings me to my next point, one of my main points through this whole discussion.

I also have video proof

I have simply been providing EVIDENCE.

I have shown the factual math, you can't escape it

There are lots of similar quotes I could pull up from this thread. All wrong. You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

It is much easier to prove something happening (show a video of something happening) then prove that something wont happen. Or science would have disproven ghosts and religion long ago.

You talk about facts, math, evidence, reality and proof, but as a chemical engineer I can say that it takes a lot more then what you have presented to prove something according to those standards.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you talking about fungis? My point wasnt that you could get lots of fungis as a casual, it was that anyone can get money. Killing guards, grouping in where ever and winning randoms, farming gems for armor, etc etc. You say that you know a lot about EQ, you should know that you can get money as a casual. You can also farm torpor with a couple of friends. I have done guardian wurms with 3 people, without torpor.

The reason why I am talking about Fungi's is because of what you said:

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual.

You literally said it is easy to get some lucky Fungi drops as a casual[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never claimed farming money is hard. But it is time consuming in most cases, unless you get lucky. So is raiding. If you can spend the time to farm 100k and get to level 60, you can probably find time to raid. Fungi Farming and GWurms usually require hours of time back to back to see results, so if you can play 3+ hours at a time, you can raid. If you are so casual that you can only do guard farming for 1 hour a day forever, then yes, raiding won't be for you.

I never said you can't do GWurms or King without Torpor. I have done both without Torpor as well. But both of those spots can be done with a small number of people. This means if you are grouping with randos, they will pick a Torpor Shaman over you if they had the choice. If you have a farm crew that gets together all the time, that is great! Not a lot of people have that though, especially casuals.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So torpor shammy isnt the same as raiding shammy.

But I thought we were talking about torpor shammies, and there is a lot of different kinds of torpor shammies.

This is mystique again. All Torpor Shamans operate EXACTLY the same. All players can acquire the proper gear and strategies to do all of the Shaman content possible if they dedicate enough time and platinum. The only thing a Torpor Shaman cannot do is swap racials. You are stuck with whatever racials you get from the start. That is why people debate about which racial is best. It is literally the only thing that is different between Torpor Shamans.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a lot of snare quotes I could bring up, but I will just say this. I am stupified that we are discussing whether or not snare is any good.

Where did I ever debate that snare is bad? I said snare isn't very useful for Shaman specific strategies and farm spots. That is different from saying snare is bad. Also, Snare neck is specifically the WORST snare in the game, on top of having a long cast time, so it is an extremely limited snare. Snare is amazing for quadding, for example. Shamans can't quad though, even with all of their snare items. Even if you could find a way to ghetto quad, it wouldn't be as effective as the other Shaman strategies available. Different spells have different benefits for different classes when soloing.

When grouping (3+ people), you will probably have a person who can snare, and do it way better than Snare Neck. This is especially true if an encounter requires a snare. Nobody is expecting a Shaman to break out the snares when building a group, nor should they.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

here are lots of similar quotes I could pull up from this thread. All wrong. You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

It is much easier to prove something happening (show a video of something happening) then prove that something wont happen. Or science would have disproven ghosts and religion long ago.

You talk about facts, math, evidence, reality and proof, but as a chemical engineer I can say that it takes a lot more then what you have presented to prove something according to those standards.

I am a game programmer. I deal with logic and facts, specific to gaming. I am providing evidence for my claims. That is how this works lol. I make a claim, and I provide evidence. If you want to dispute my claim, please provide counter evidence. You do not get to say "Your evidence is insufficient!" without providing any of your own. I am 100% open to being wrong here. But I have yet to see people posting even one scenario where snare would have made a huge difference on a Torpor Shaman. And AGAIN, even if you can show a rare scenario, other Shamans have 3 different options to acquire snare if they want to. Yes, having charges on items is a pain in the ass, but Snare Neck is not giving a Troll an advantage other Shaman races cannot get too. At worst, it is simply preventing you from doing that specific situation as often, without replenishing your charge items first. But Shamans are not new to this. FD ring and Puppet Strings are also items with charges, and they are used in very specific Shaman scenarios.

[Berendar]

I got the snare necklace on Blue a couple of years ago and unless it has changed since then, it was almost worthless. It took ages to cast and lasted a couple of ticks.

People also always discount the quality of life thing with FSI. I always noticed getting constantly stunned on my Troll and Barbarian in just day to day gameplay after playing a Ogre to the point where it became annoying. I always tank mobs though as not a fan of root/rotting if I can avoid it.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Berendar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I got the snare necklace on Blue a couple of years ago and unless it has changed since then, it was almost worthless. It took ages to cast and lasted a couple of ticks.

Snare can save a ton of mana both grouping and soloing at high levels, that alone makes it valuable. There are a couple other tricks you can pull off with it, nothing major or anything but certainly useful if the situation arises.

Originally Posted by Berendar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People also always discount the quality of life thing with FSI. I always noticed getting constantly stunned on my Troll and Barbarian in just day to day gameplay after playing a Ogre to the point where it became annoying. I always tank mobs though as not a fan of root/rotting if I can avoid it.

Ahh, that's nice. I find people who don't know what they are talking about annoying.