Mage pets

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You "agreeing to disagree" in face of that is you "being obtuse."

Look, just because I don't agree with you that the thousands of Enchanter players on Live were too stupid to cast their class defining spell does not make me obtuse. Try to remember: when you read the manual and started playing, Enchanters were sold as the masters of mind control, ie. charmers ... Verant was not lke "play this class, you'll distract monsters while everyone else fights!". You had to play and discover that that was your reality as an Enchanter.

Yes "modern knowledge" like GCD or Goblin ring makes charm significantly more powerful. But even without those things ... I promise you, there are Enchanters right now, on Green/Teal, charming ... who have never even heard of GCD items.

Their lack of modern knowledge isn't what's stopping them from charming. Heck, if they don't know GCD we're probably talking about "fresh from live" players: they're default would be to think they can only mez. I posit that it's the lack of a classic mechanic which leads them to play differently here ... again, in a system with something like 98.5% super close if not perfectly accurate mechanics.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, just because I don't agree with you that the thousands of Enchanter players on Live were too stupid to cast their class defining spell does not make me obtuse. Try to remember: when you read the manual and started playing, Enchanters were sold as the masters of mind control, ie. charmers ... it was not lke "play this class, you'll distract monsters while everyone else fights!". You had to play and discover that that was your reality as an Enchanter.

Yes "modern knowledge" like GCD or Goblin ring makes charm significantly more powerful. But even without those things ... I promise you, there are Enchanters right now, on Green/Teal, charming ... who have never even heard of GCD items.

Their lack of modern knowledge isn't stopping them from charming: I posit that it's the lack of a classic mechanic which is (again, in a system with something like 98.5% super close if not perfectly accurate mechanics)

Like I said a minute ago. If it was inevitable for people to figure out how to use chanters/charm so effectively with these mechanics, then why did blue exist for years and only end up with a surge in enchanters and charmers after the SAC and other chanter videos very publicly demonstrated it all?

Like I said a minute ago. If something like GCDs existed and was known by some people back in the day, why didn't everyone know about it?


If you can't explain away this stuff while continuing to believe as you do... yeah... that's why I called you obtuse. You're ignoring things that poke holes in your reasoning and just blindly carrying on.

Explain why I'm wrong instead of running in circles with your one argument.

[getsome]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People mostly didn't notice how effective charm was on P99 blue until the middle of kunark. Why is it such a stretch that barely anyone noticed in 1999-2001?

Having played on blue during the time period you are referencing your statement is wrong.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by getsome [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having played on blue during the time period you are referencing your statement is wrong.

There were like half as many chanters on blue in classic as there are on green. The old forums aren't full of discussions about how OP charm is like there are on green forums now. MY experience with blue classic was necros all over lguk, but not enchanters except at easier camps.

Those things don't mesh with it being common knowledge how to use enchanters effectively.

Note that I'm not claiming nobody knew. I'm claiming that few people knew.

[tommydgun]

Originally Posted by French Wizard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The mobs dont summon you just root them, your damage is garbo because rogues miss 50% of the backstabs and of the ones they land 50% are not good dmg

miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss

sorry you are fat and bad

God you are a fucking idiot, but I'll bite. First thanks for the laugh, I'm extremely fit. Second, let's explain expected value of damage to you since you failed high school math. Let's assume you never get resisted. You nuke for 600 damage every 7.5 seconds if you include your global cooldown and cast time. That means you nuke for 1200 every 15 seconds. With haste I'm attacking every 2.2 seconds for a high value of 40+ damage and backstabbing every 6s for a high value at max level of 300 or so damage. Let's say I miss half the time. This works my expected value of a regular attack to 20 damage let's say and 150 on a backstab. In the time it takes you to cast and recover from 2 spells I've gotten off 7 rounds of attacks. If we assume only 3 attacks and no quads every round I'm doing 60 damage a round on autos and 150 on backstabs. This is 420 damage in auto attacks and 300 in backstabs conservatively. So sure that's 720 and I just said you do 1200 but you can nuke 12x before oom. That is 2 minutes of nuking. Then you have to med 100% which let's give you the benefit and say that takes you 2 minutes only to med 100%. That means your 1200 damage interval is really half up-time which means your average 2 rounds of attacks is 600. Btw 600 is less than 720. Get fucked you moron.

[bum3]

Originally Posted by tommydgun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol what are people smoking thinking these casters are outdpsing rogues? My rogue at 31 backstabs for a high of 180 which is 0 mana and reused every what 10s? Quad attacks for high hits of 35. When I have haste especially how do you figure a caster is outdpsing me?

I'm going to call BS on this. My guild has 6 rogues in the 30s right now. I have grouped with all. None are BSing regularly for over 100 with SBDs and Poons. None have hit 180s. Quad attacks for high hits of 35.. sure but at 170 str most of your hits are low 20s.

Wife charms gypsy rogue in MM.. backstabs for 201.. quads for 70's (mostly hits 50s). rune sword procs 40.. But let just say Mage at 31... sure you can outdmg their pet. But even if mage nukes 1 per mob you just lost that dps race. Why? Because in a full group a single lvl 30-35 mob with a group of low 30s gonna kill the mob before rogue gets a 2nd backstab.. let alone 3.

I'd say you definitely can outdmg a cleric or druid. Wizard is iffy but probably not. I'm talking about mobs not raid bosses here.

[tommydgun]

Originally Posted by bum3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm going to call BS on this. My guild has 6 rogues in the 30s right now. I have grouped with all. None are BSing regularly for over 100 with SBDs and Poons. None have hit 180s. Quad attacks for high hits of 35.. sure but at 170 str most of your hits are low 20s.

Wife charms gypsy rogue in MM.. backstabs for 201.. quads for 70's (mostly hits 50s). rune sword procs 40.. But let just say Mage at 31... sure you can outdmg their pet. But even if mage nukes 1 per mob you just lost that dps race. Why? Because in a full group a single lvl 30-35 mob with a group of low 30s gonna kill the mob before rogue gets a 2nd backstab.. let alone 3.

I'd say you definitely can outdmg a cleric or druid. Wizard is iffy but probably not. I'm talking about mobs not raid bosses here.

ill give you a chanter with a rogue pet is the most damage, but im sorry your guild rogues dont backstab hard... SBD isnt the best backstab weapon in the game, i personally use a gloomwater harpoon and have 220 str buffed

[turbosilk]

Originally Posted by tommydgun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

God you are a fucking idiot, but I'll bite. First thanks for the laugh, I'm extremely fit. Second, let's explain expected value of damage to you since you failed high school math. Let's assume you never get resisted. You nuke for 600 damage every 7.5 seconds if you include your global cooldown and cast time. That means you nuke for 1200 every 15 seconds. With haste I'm attacking every 2.2 seconds for a high value of 40+ damage and backstabbing every 6s for a high value at max level of 300 or so damage. Let's say I miss half the time. This works my expected value of a regular attack to 20 damage let's say and 150 on a backstab. In the time it takes you to cast and recover from 2 spells I've gotten off 7 rounds of attacks. If we assume only 3 attacks and no quads every round I'm doing 60 damage a round on autos and 150 on backstabs. This is 420 damage in auto attacks and 300 in backstabs conservatively. So sure that's 720 and I just said you do 1200 but you can nuke 12x before oom. That is 2 minutes of nuking. Then you have to med 100% which let's give you the benefit and say that takes you 2 minutes only to med 100%. That means your 1200 damage interval is really half up-time which means your average 2 rounds of attacks is 600. Btw 600 is less than 720. Get fucked you moron.

Compare your dps to a mage or necro maybe? If love to see that parse comparison.

[Sillyturtle]

Loramin I think rule 528 is simply that the internet landscape was not as developed. You didn’t have people using YouTube and showingg people how to do things. You probably just had people telling others via word of mouth things like “that enchanters are for messing this is what you do” and nobody experimented with things and couple that win the fact the live eq was advancing level caps and things much more quickly than p99 and you’re left with people not figuring things out because they don’t stay in an era long enough to discover the elite strategies and character quirks before moving on.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Sillyturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin I think rule 528 is simply that the internet landscape was not as developed. You didn’t have people using YouTube and showingg people how to do things. You probably just had people telling others via word of mouth things like “that enchanters are for messing this is what you do” and nobody experimented with things and couple that win the fact the live eq was advancing level caps and things much more quickly than p99 and you’re left with people not figuring things out because they don’t stay in an era long enough to discover the elite strategies and character quirks before moving on.

I just don't find that that makes for a satisfying explanation of the very large delta.

It might explain part, but again, everyone started out wanting to charm, not distract monsters. It took some systemic force, beyond just "no Youtube", to guide them all into being mezzbots, and not solo charmers or group charmers. Whatever that force was, it's clearly absent here.