Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Frostback]

So, why not charm? Simple. You cannot charm 95% of mobs in any of the planes as Allure is capped, and it is totally random in duration. If Enchanters are going to be told to rely on charm then Allure has to be upgraded to be castable on all NPC's (bar Dragons and Gods) and set durations have to be implemented.

{Editors note: Ok this is where I must disagree myself I use the charm series on a regular basis to replace my pet. I feel they are much more usefull than our pets for many reasons.
1. They require no regeant, thats right no more tiny daggers.
2. They obey commands (CHEER, my favorite part).
3. It reduces the number of incoming MOBs by one for crowd control.
4. get the caster, be it blaster or healer have its mana working for you and not against you.
As for the amount of creatures that are uncharmable I guess I haven't reached that point yet but if it is so maybe a boost to our high level spells would be in order after all this is one of our primary class roles.
But a few downfalls I have noticed also
1. your charmed pet will have a tendency, in Lower Guk especially, to warp if not in battle then return to you uncharmed with a large deadly train.
2. because many are not used to us charming things they tend to waste alot of mana on a MOB not bothering to notice it is doing no damage, this verant could fix with a simple warning line that you have targeted a charmed creature or as the spell goes off a line saying the Gods protect your target in the yellow warning color.}

If Enchanters are going to be reduced to Charm, Clarity, Mez and Stuns then they need some upgrades:

The cap on Allure upped, and random times removed.
Better clarity for grouping.
Unresistable/near unresistable mez spells.
Longer duration, less resisted AE stuns.
If it is not Verant's intent to reduce Enchanters to this role then they need to be givien some kind of combat upgrade. Possibilities include:

Stronger pets with commands.
More efficient and group friendly DD and DoT spells.
Enhancements to their slow and stat debuff spells to make them the leaders in this area.
I am not saying Enchanters are useless, but they are being forced into a role which they are becoming very quickly ill-equipped to handle in High Level zones.

On top of this are the little things for Enchanters:
Berserker Spirit being nerfed silently last patch losing 20% of its protective skin.
Still no full implementation of Item Enchantment after being told it would be included in March of 1999.
Mana Sieve & Curse of the Mind are for all intents useless on NPC's.
{Editors note: I was thinking on this one last night what if Mana Sieve where to give us a small ratio of the mana taken from the mob? Say 1:10 or so since we are not really great blasters and our mainstay is to debuff and charm this would have little chance of having an abusive application. I understand this may not fit so well into our perceived class type being a leach like spell but I never saw the original spell as much of an Illusionists trick either, unless you think of it like we are using the MoBs own thoughts against him.}
The Lull Series has a resist level so high it is a suicide spell on anything white or above.
Illusions now being for all intents purely for fun with the removal of the Enchanter scouting abilities. The bonuses on the illusions aren't really of any major benefit.
WTYH and DDD. These spells offer nothing a cheaper mana AE stun can't provide. And the AE stuns are resisted much less, and last much longer. They were meant to be fixed months ago...
{Editors note: not to mention the lack of item degradation that is harming our economic side.}
I point all of this out to show that there are class balance issues everywhere. Enchanter's are just one class which is need of retuning. Rogues, SK's, Paladins, Necromancers are all below what they should be at this moment as a result of recent patching and the game evolution. All we can do as players is keep the issues in Verant's face until something is done.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010425...m/volume7.html

[Arteker]

charm worked prety damm well in first expansion, kunark, but on velious it was high risk due to mobs higher resists.tash sticks being so common back then had a good reason .

the golden age of charming shit was luclin with pre nerf dire charm+magician new pet toys

[Morratiz]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Str...egy.html#charm

This is what you consider "facts" to back up your claims?

[cd288]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Half of P99 code base is from random old sites like that.

And there it is, the admission on an old classic site that Charm isn't worth it even in groups most of the time.

This post is so ignorant and dumb that I honestly feel like it might be a troll post.

You have to realize, we've had 20 years to min/max every single EQ strategy. Charming is one of those that has been super-focused on. People didn't understand the mechanics of Charm breaks back then. They also hadn't perfected the typical Charm killing strategy and therefore many Enchanters didn't think about things like rooting the non-pet mob, tashing things to reduce Magic Resistance, and how their level difference versus the Charmed pet could affect break frequency.

There's no coding difference between P99 and EQ classic era Charm that makes it operate any differently on P99. People have just min/maxed the strategy and have way more knowledge than they did back then. That's why it seems more OP than it was in the classic era, but in actuality it's not.

[Khorza]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Half of P99 code base is from random old sites like that.

And there it is, the admission on an old classic site that Charm isn't worth it even in groups most of the time.

I've had people on P99 tell me that charm sucks and isn't worth using in groups.

That doesn't mean that it's true.

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by Khorza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've had people on P99 tell me that charm sucks and isn't worth using in groups.

That doesn't mean that it's true.

yeah I'm sure people are telling you not to abuse charm in groups [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Madbad]

Originally Posted by Khorza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've had people on P99 tell me that charm sucks and isn't worth using in groups.

That doesn't mean that it's true.

The only time that is true is when your group has tons of DPS and is just shredding mobs.

Then you might want the XP from the spawn you are holding up.

Say your camp has 10 mobs and you have one charmed. That's 10% less XP over the course of a session, provided your group is killing fast enough to have down time waiting for pops.

The only times I have been asked not to charm were because of this.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Str...egy.html#charm

Do you know where we'd be if we took everything in the Ruins of Kunark Prima Strategy guide seriously? Let alone one player's opinion from 20 years ago.

It's evidence of someone's opinion, but have you got anything a bit more solid?

Further along in that article it recommends the use of theft of thought to remove an NPCs mana, but it doesn't say that doing this causes high threat levels. So from that, could I argue that ToT on P99 causes way too much aggro versus classic live servers? Surrreely they'd have mentioned it being a professional guide?

I could try, but I don't think I'd get anywhere [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[turbosilk]

When I've been with enchanters it's broken often enough that the healer is always oom so the enchanter stops charming mobs.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Str...egy.html#charm

I just was reading through that guide. I notice you cherry-picked the hell out of this quote in an attempt to argue for a charm nerf, because the sentence immediately after he warns about not using charm in groups, he also says that charm is a great way to improve the damage of your group or raid. That's far from the first thing I'd point at in a thread where I'm trying to get charm nerfed.

More of that guide only echos Xornn's guide, p99 guides, and what I've been saying in here. Talks about the power of charm, the use of root and stun and aoe mez, etc etc.


It also provides evidence supporting why charm wasn't MORE heavily used, even though the enchanters writing these guides specifically talk about how powerful charm is.

Chanters back in the day had it in their heads that they were primarily for support. The game manual said so. Classic RPG knowledge of a spellcaster whose spells were buffs and debuffs and whose nukes were less effective says so. Their group mates said so when the warrior was awed at his 25 dps with haste and when the cleric didn't have to help root CC because the chanter could handle ALL of it. They didn't understand the opportunity cost though.

Old chanter guides talk about slowing every mob (even guides written for level 20 and under characters). About chain stunning to help the healers. About using cripple line of spells to make tanks take less damage. No wonder they didn't have the time or mana to keep a low blue or even a high green con charmed for extra dps.

They NEVER say "don't charm in groups because it breaks too often and you can't get it back under control due to stun and mez resists and you'll oom trying to handle charming while doing even minimal buffing and CC in addition." They say stuff more like "don't charm in groups because it uses up healer mana" or "don't charm in groups because you should focus on CC and buffs/debuffs" or "I like to nuke stuff sometimes" or whatnot.